Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

First off, I've personally never said that Israel shouldn't respond with military means. This is a conflict, there is going to be some of that. What I have an issue with it is the proportion and the clear destruction of infrastructure that will impact 1000 civilians for every one terrorist. That and Israel's role on a broader level.

But to respond to the events of last week in the short term

• Use the vast intelligence resources to target the individuals involved or to identify training or weapons storage locations and target them in an isolated manner either through air attack, or limited but focused ground incursions.
• Use Mossad to target the ring leaders of the attacks
• Use the US and or the EU to help develop and enforce sanctions for the support of Hamas

Long term

• Relax their blockade of the Gaza Strip
• Pull back from settlements that are acknowledged as being illegal.
• Show that they are committed to finding a two state solution.
• Show the Palestinian people that Hamas are not in their best interests.

That's some independence when a ship that tried to dock there was attacked by Israeli soldiers, with many on it being murdered.

Your first mistake is to assume that Hamas want to do anything other than increase the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Their goal is to stoke a response that increases the human catastrophe within Gaza with the aim of using that for propaganda purposes. That so many seem so willing to give them just that is grist to to the mill for them

What Israel is doing is horribly wrong, I agree with you on that. However, the phrase "war crimes" is completely overused in this context. Here is the reference from the UN:

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml

1. Intentionally directing attacks against buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals and places where the sick and wounded are collected, provided they are not military objectives

I have bolded the relevant piece for you. If Hamas are hiding their fighters, their equipment and their rockets in schools and hospitals, then while it is horribly wrong to bomb those places, it isn't a war crime, because of the actions of Hamas. The actual test of whether Israel is committing war crimes comes down to the level of cynicism of Hamas towards their own population. By placing terrorists and equipment inside hospitals (which has been alleged but not yet proven), Hamas would be reducing potential war crimes by Israel down to the level of acts of war.

Where you may have some better arguments would be in relation to this one:

Intentionally using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare by depriving them of objects indispensable to their survival, including wilfully impeding relief supplies as provided for under the Geneva Conventions

However, the argument that Israel would use would be that there is another border with Egypt through which trade with Gaza can take place, and that Israel's actions in closing its border and cutting links are necessary steps in self-defence which are protected and that Gaza should use the alternate border to supply its civilians. Remember war crimes is a legal rather than a moral conclusion, and that defence would have to be considered by the International Criminal Court. So, what Israel is doing is horribly wrong, morally obscene and a complete overreaction but it may not meet the definition of a war crime.

However, what can be said without doubt, is that Hamas has committed multiple war crimes in the last week, from the taking of hostages to violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture. Rape is another war crime committed by Hamas in the last week. Ironically, if Hamas had stopped at the border posts it overwhelmed and destroyed and then retreated back to Gaza, it would have been only committing acts of war. The actions it took against the music festival, against the kibbutzs and against families living in their own homes were actions that go way beyond acts of war and well into the theatre of war crimes. They are among the worst war crimes we have seen in recent years.

This was pointed out to boyd Barrett yesterday by Leo varadkar in the Dail yesterday

You saw the video of Shani Louk on the back of the van, broken and being spat on, right?

Could you not conclude from that video that a woman, stripped almost naked, unconscious, surrounded by men in a highly charged scenario could have been sexually assaulted?

Or are you another person who seems to need video proof before they believe anything? (And I'm sure if you did have video proof you'd probably conclude it was a deepfake or some other such shite)

Of course I conclude this could have happened. The poster insisted it did happen.

There are images of dozens of Hamas fighters lying on the ground, naked and bound, surrounded by Israeli soldiers being humiliated

Due you believe all of those were raped by the Israeli soldiers?

If I insisted these Hamas fighters were raped would you automatically believe it?

I have no idea what you are saying then or what you are trying to justify. It seems you were saying because of their intransigence to give up their claims to the land and that the Israeli culture is better that the Arabs should leave or something. It does sounds alot like what happened to the native Americans and would have happened here too if we hadnt had defeated the British. I dont favour the Arabs over the Israeli or wish one party was defeated by the other.

A lot of commentators on social media do have the opinion that we should support the Jewish people over the Arbas in this land dispute because the jews are more like us and have more Nobel prizes- its all nonsense.

The difference is that capturing the Hamas fighters is a legitimate act of war. Taking Shani Louk hostage is a war crime.

Im sure they will but the ultra violent, ultra fascist theological hole that is Gaza has to be neutralised as a threat first.

Certainly Iran needs taking care of as well. It is a significant global threat.