Is the UK now giving off strong Third World vibes?

yagan · 09-10-2023 12:23pm

It's almost as if Frances knows nothing about Ireland.

K-9 · 09-10-2023 12:41pm

You're right on the Tories not making it up as they went along , Serco running track and trace and making a balls of it or having a fast track system to award their cronies multimillion contracts, that type of stuff is going on years.

The NHS had a track and trace system, scaled back and underfunded for years under the Tories, but the basics were there. Ignoring them and giving the contract to an omnishambles of a company like Serco is par for the course.

And they'll give Serco yet more contracts despite their track record. Rewarding failure seems to be an ideological belief with this shower.

Unflushable Turd · 09-10-2023 2:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213471#Comment_121213471

To be honest, all your post tells us, is that you know nothing about government procurement and how it works.

it’s odd that no one mentions Sitel when they rant about track and trace, because despite them having an equal share of the contract, they have zero connections to the Tory party, so there is no potential for mud slinging.

it’s also odd that in Ireland, people will tell you all about the disastrous uk tracing service and how it was awarded to a pal of the Tories, yet forget to acknowledge that the Irish version, that was ran by the ex ceo of the HSE actually performed worse, but then the HSE has always been good at deflecting away from its failures.

yagan · 09-10-2023 2:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213913#Comment_121213913

Was Ireland worse because our COVID death rate was half of the UK?

Unflushable Turd · 09-10-2023 2:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213991#Comment_121213991

you are comparing two countries of enormous variance in density and demographics and who have different methods of recording deaths (are Ireland even recording them any more?) and trying to make some kind of a point?

Not surprising I guess

yagan · 09-10-2023 4:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121214022#Comment_121214022

The other difference of course was the UK shutdowns trailing Ireland by a week, thereby allowing exponential spread which you seem to think was a better bargain.

Unflushable Turd · 09-10-2023 4:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121214531#Comment_121214531

and ultimately made very very little difference. You have to remember, the Irish response was based on one thing and one thing only, that the HSE is permanently overwhelmed and the Irish government (or should I say the HSE, because the Irish government completely excused themsleves from the whole thing) were terrified that their years and years of under investment was coming home to roost.

yagan · 09-10-2023 5:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121214564#Comment_121214564

Little difference? More than double a death rate than Ireland that has a more centralised population than England?

Then slowest bounce back in the oecd.

Is this what winning downwards is?

K-9 · 09-10-2023 7:01pm

Ignore the deaths or something.

Anyway if some think the UK somehow handled Covid better, what can you do. Its an ideological position so facts and numbers don't come into it.

yagan · 09-10-2023 7:32pm

I remember Johnson in his Greenwich speech calling the news of lockdowns in China as "autarky" and "market fragmentation" and barely as a health issue.

Even after he ended up hospitalised I never got the impression he took it seriously. His only focus seemed to be wordplay and Churchill adulation.

Brexit was a complete fantasy and he let it fill his own fantasies.

Unflushable Turd · 09-10-2023 10:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121215257#Comment_121215257

You ignored my points then.

someone who posts half truths and media gossip but accuses someone of having an ideology isn’t worth entering in to a sensible discussion with, so adios.

goodlad_ourvlad · 11-10-2023 10:12am

so, seen as we're in a COVID row now.... a country which helped develop a vaccine and rolled out the fastest vaccine program in Europe is third world now?

Peregrinus · 12-10-2023 1:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121222564#Comment_121222564

Nitpick: It wasn't the fastest vaccine programme in Europe. It was one of the first to start but other countries, which started later, achieved their target vaccination rates before the UK did. Therefore, their programmes were faster.

goodlad_ourvlad · 12-10-2023 8:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226621#Comment_121226621

I forgot, it was that slow, the UK was one of the last countries opening up in Europe

**checks notes**

sorry, was one of the first to open up

Peregrinus · 12-10-2023 9:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226862#Comment_121226862

Which, coupled with the relatively slow rollout of vaccination, meant they got a higher second spike than they needed to have, and more deaths. Plus, in the context of this thread, rapid opening up isn't exactly something that would distinguish them from third world countries.

Honestly? There are lots of grounds on which you could argue that the UK is not, and is not like, a third world country. Pandemic management is not a particularly strong one. There are high points (you've already mentioned the UK's role in supporting the development of the AstraZeneca vaccine, and you're right) but there are certainly some aspects of their pandemic management — e.g. the huge amounts of money channelled to well-connected friends of the regime, given privileged access to government procurement contracts, to deliver product that was frequently second-rate — that. if we're honest, are reminiscent of third-world governance standards.

yagan · 12-10-2023 9:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226965#Comment_121226965

If I remember rightly there was so much chest thumping about the first vaccine shot that they hadn't enough shots for the second round to complete the dosage.

Added to that the messaging made a lot feel they didn't need a second shot.

goodlad_ourvlad · 12-10-2023 9:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226965#Comment_121226965

NPHET were right then?

swampgas · 12-10-2023 1:15pm

Why is it that the English (or maybe it's just the Bexiteers) want to treat reacting to a pandemic as some kind of international competition, like it was the world cup or something, desperately looking for any excuse to big themselves up, beat their chests, and slag off everyone else?

It's just ... immature? Childish? Pathetic? Irresponsible?

It was a pandemic, and most countries were looking to cooperate, to SAVE LIVES.

Johnson's Britain was odious in its desire to brag, to sneer, to point score - ABOUT PEOPLE DYING.

Not sure how that fits into "third world" categorization, but it really doesn't paint the UK in a good light.

Quitelife · 12-10-2023 1:24pm

Whatever about Covid , the biggest things wrong with the UK in recent years is the amount of working people using Food Banks to survive and the amount of knife murders on the streets of Uk cities , these would be two major issues making UK a unattractive place in many peoples eyes.

Unflushable Turd · 12-10-2023 1:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227992#Comment_121227992

What an absolute load of rubbish. I think you'll find the ones on about the covid response are the usual slag off everything British/IRA supporters. The same ones like to use death rates to score points (but won't engage in an actual discussion). If I recall correctly, it was a certain EU president who decided that the UK was responsible for the EU's lacklustre vaccine programme and even went as far as to invoke article 16.

It is now kind of comical that a poster is describing the UK roll out of vaccines as slow and harping on about these imaginary contracts given to well connected people, but then a quick look at their posts on the Politics forum would explain that.

But hey, it's an Irish forum and being able to spin a good yarn is far more important than actual facts.

swampgas · 12-10-2023 2:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228201#Comment_121228201

Fair enough - but I've definitely picked up a pattern of posts, defensive of the UK, latching onto the UKs supposed superior response to COVID as being something to brag about, or something that marks the UK as better than the EU, and it's depressing. If ever there was a time for international cooperation, the COVID pandemic was it. It was a difficult time for every country, not every country got it right, and that's to be expected. Turning COVID into a political football doesn't sit well with me.

Unflushable Turd · 12-10-2023 2:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228342#Comment_121228342

I agree. No country got it right, with the possible exception of New Zealand, but being on an island thousands of kilometres from anywhere must surely have helped.

end of the road · 12-10-2023 3:40pm

the contracts to tory cronies and provision of sometimes second rate products were absolutely not imaginary but were absolute fact.

Francis McM · 12-10-2023 4:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228048#Comment_121228048

murders in uk? Actually Ireland has a higher rate than the UK.

Quote: " Ireland is 10th (1.59), two places above England and Wales (1.41) and three places higher than the north (1.33). Ireland has a significantly higher rate than most western European countries, including states with a significant problem with organised crime, such as Italy (1.06), the Netherlands (0.97) and Spain (0.77)"

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20081103.html#:~:text=Ireland%20is%2010th%20(1.59)%2C,)%20and%20Spain%20(0.77).

Unflushable Turd · 12-10-2023 4:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228948#Comment_121228948

Only in your simple view of the world.

the reality is far too nuanced for you to comprehend, but there is plenty of good reading on it, such as the national audit office report

end of the road · 12-10-2023 5:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121229107#Comment_121229107

even if that is true, it would only be in percentage terms which is not the whole story.

but in pure numbers, britain has the highest murder rate in europe.

end of the road · 12-10-2023 5:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121229112#Comment_121229112

the contracts to tory cronies, some of the contracts going to entities unexperienced in providing the product they were contracted to provide, and provision of sometimes second rate products are absolute proven fact, in reality.

Peregrinus · 13-10-2023 3:48am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121229107#Comment_121229107

Is there a reason why you've gone for the 2006 data? Apart from anything else, it's hardly much use in defending the performance of the UK under the Tories, or in rebutting the OP's suggestion that the UK is now giving off third world vibes.

(I mean, I get that more recent figures don't support the case you want to make. But you could have just not posted on this point.)

yagan · 13-10-2023 7:34am

Francis will be citing 1900 figures soon for the size of its naval fleet.

Seth Brundle · 13-10-2023 8:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121229107#Comment_121229107

Ah, welcome back @Francis McM. Any chance now that you'll confirm your claim that the Irish Pandemic Payments facilitated "16 year olds living at home who had just worked one or two Saturdays" and "There were students going around that year with more money than they could spend / knew what to do with. Crazy waste of public money, no wonder our foreign debt increased by 20 billion"?

Or were you (as I suspect) posting yet more anti-Irish nonsense?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121206697#Comment_121206697

Francis McM · 13-10-2023 9:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121229339#Comment_121229339

Wrong. Actually, in the 12 months ending March 2022, the homicide rate over there was only 11.7 per million population

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/homicideinenglandandwales/march2022

By contrast, there were 69 homicide offences recorded in the Republic of Ireland in 2022, so Ireland's homicide rate was higher / worse than UK.

There were 5,149,139 people in the State in April 2022, so Ireland's homicide rate was approx 13.4 per million.

This is just to refute the claim a poster made yesterday about murder rate UK. I think it is not exceptionally dangerous over there.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/945262/homicides-in-ireland/

Francis McM · 13-10-2023 9:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121205830#Comment_121205830

To answer your question "Can you confirm the approx amount that went to students who worked a couple of Saturdays.", the government scheme of €350 a week, introduced in a panic in 2020, was extremely well known and availed of. The age was 18, not 16 as I mistakenly typed. I thought you would have heard of the PUP ( Pandemic Unemployment Payment) scheme before. Never mind.

Seth Brundle · 13-10-2023 10:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231192#Comment_121231192

You're being deliberately obtuse givern that my question has been phrased in a number of ways yet you choose to interpret is as how much did each student receive (which was never the context or phrasing).

So, to make it easy to understand: how much in total did the government spend towards PUP for "16 (or now 18) olds living at home who had just worked one or two Saturdays"? In other words, how many 16 (or now 18) year olds living at home who had just worked one or two Saturdays received the (as you claim) €350?

It really shouldn't be a difficult question to answer unless you know that your nonsense is clearly being called out on.

Peregrinus · 13-10-2023 10:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231149#Comment_121231149

You've chosen you periods carefully, Frank. Your UK (actually, England and Wales) figures are for the 12 months to March 2022; the Irish figures for calendar year 2022.

This makes a big difference, since the E&W figures are for a period, most of which fell in calendar year 2021. And the number of murders recorded in Ireland in calendar year 2021, the period that most overlaps with the UK period you have selected, was just 39. So the Irish murder rate in the period most closely corresponding to 12 months to March 2022 was substantially lower than the E&W murder rate for that period - less than half.

What's going on here? The pandemic. Crime rates - including murder - fell hugely during and after lockdown, for obvious reasons. The E&W period you have chosen is strongly affected by this.

You need to look at this over a period of several years to filter out effects like this.

Francis McM · 13-10-2023 10:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231253#Comment_121231253

Not the point. The point was that Ireland national debt rose from 203 billion just prior to the pandemic to a whooping 237 billion now, despite all the windfall taxes we get from a handful of foreign companies laundering their worldwide profits through Ireland.

Giving €350 to everyone, even part time workers / student workers in 2020 has to be one the things which contributed to our national debt increasing? You tell me how much it cost if you like.

Quote " Public debt increased by more than 11 per cent at the end of 2022 to around €44,000 for every person in the country, which is one of the highest per capita debt burdens in the world, figures from the Department of Finance show."

ihttps://www.irishtimes.com/business/2023/02/03/irelands-public-debt-rises-to-one-of-highest-in-the-world-per-capita/#:~:text=Public%20debt%20increased%20by%20more,just%20prior%20to%20the%20pandemic.

Seth Brundle · 13-10-2023 11:19am

So @Francis McM, you're not answering my question which directly challenged a claim you made.

I therefore take it that you cannot back up your claim and I'm assuming that this is purely because your claim (as everyone suspects) was complete nonsense posted because you wanted create an opportunity to criticise the Irish government's approach to pandemic payments when you saw that the UK approach was being criticised.

If you're going to post something, at least have the balls to back it up rather than try avoid the question for days and then waffle on about something else when you're called up on it after you show your face again.

AllForIt · 13-10-2023 12:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227992#Comment_121227992

Well, initially Johnson's government was heavily criticized for it's inaction in the early days of the pandemic, particularly about it's decision not to suspend the Cheltenham horse racing event and the like, so it's not surprising they wanted to counter that criticism with a narrative of how well they were handling it.

Francis McM · 13-10-2023 12:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231644#Comment_121231644

You again missed the point and went off on a tangent. If you look back, my post was in reply to someone who was complaining about the UK response to Covid and the government there making panic contracts etc.

I wrote

"Johnsons response was reasonable enough you say? His country, partly thanks to the UK government, was the first in the world to develop and roll out a vaccine, showing a bit of light at the end of the tunnel for the rest of the world. Tests on their AstraZenica carried out in 2020 showed that the efficacy of the vaccine is 76.0% at preventing symptomatic COVID-19 beginning at 22 days following the first dose, and 81.3% after the second dose."

I then pointed out the situation in Ireland with our Pandemic Unemployment scheme ( which you had never heard of ) where our government increased the national debt by billions unnecessarily by, for example, giving €350 per week to even part time workers . And I wrote "And you talk about "panic contracts"!"

Seth Brundle · 13-10-2023 12:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231953#Comment_121231953

Again with misleading posts trying to rewrite history. My questioning direclty challenged this (posted here)...

Here our government increased the national debt by billions unnecessarily by, for example, giving every 15 or 16 year old who had worked a Saturday job for a few Saturdays automatic entitlement to €350 per week. And you talk about "panic contracts"!

This is an clear lie - no other way to describe it.

You've deflected from my direct questions on this. You then tried to correct what you said a by changing the age (you even got your correction wrong "The age was 18, not 16 as I mistakenly typed."). You are doing your absolute best to be disingenuous in a weaseling manner in order to avoid having to say that you deliberately lied. You answered questions that you know I didn't ask and then claimed (and are still claiming that I didn't understand the individual pandemic payment amounts (which you know I never asked about)). All to deflect from your lie being caught out.

As I said earlier, you are doing your best to appear as if you don't have the balls to stand over what you claim. Not only that you are trying to make it sound like you said something else and that your original lie was not what you said despite my questions containing your quoted posts. Honestly, if you can't post without being honest and assuming that you're not trolling then why bother coming here?

end of the road · 13-10-2023 1:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231149#Comment_121231149

nope not wrong.

your figures were from 2006.

so ultimately in percentage and pure number terms, britain now has the highest murder rate in europe.

Francis McM · 13-10-2023 1:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232046#Comment_121232046

Not the point. The point was that Ireland national debt rose from 203 billion just prior to the pandemic to a whooping 237 billion now, despite all the windfall taxes we get from a handful of foreign companies. The €350 a week the government gave to so many people, even some part time workers who never earned €350 a week before in their lives, can only be described as a panic decision in the early days of the pandemic and helped contribute to the rising of the national debt? And it was mentioned because the other poster was complaining about the UK governments response to the pandemic, their panic measures etc. They were planning for a vaccine, and doing research for same, in the very early days of the pandemic, when many said it would take 7 years to get a vaccine, if one could be found at all. Do you not remember in early Dec 2020 the first members of the public in the world being vaccinated in England / the vaccine programme being rolled out there?

Francis McM · 13-10-2023 1:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232218#Comment_121232218

I also post more recent figure, the latest that popped up on the web, from 2022 etc , See post 682.

And I gave you links, for periods ending March 2022, Dec 2022 etc.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231149#Comment_121231149

Unflushable Turd · 13-10-2023 2:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232218#Comment_121232218

lol. I’d love to see your “facts” to support this one. Or is it another one of those “facts according to EotR”?

Seth Brundle · 13-10-2023 3:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232293#Comment_121232293

Not the point.

Not what point? I repeatedly asked you to back up the completely incorrect claim that you made as a dig towards the Irish government. A dig that is pretty much typical of your posting style here.

The point was that Ireland national debt rose from 203 billion just prior to the pandemic to a whooping 237 billion now, despite all the windfall taxes we get from a handful of foreign companies.

Citing the total national debt has nothing to do with what I asked you apart from your allegation that it rose because of actions such as handing out money to young students who had barely worked and how this helped increase our national debt (yet you are unwilling to tell us how much this contributed to the debt).

The €350 a week the government gave to so many people, even some part time workers who never earned €350 a week before in their lives, can only be described as a panic decision in the early days of the pandemic and helped contribute to the rising of the national debt?

And my follow up question was that had the government been more prudent regarding handing out money, what would have happened. Again you chose to ignore this question as it fails to suit your biased narrative.

And it was mentioned because the other poster was complaining about the UK governments response to the pandemic, their panic measures etc.

Now you're deflecting to someone else's post. I asked you to comment on your claims so not sure how you think "look over there" comment is intended to work.

They were planning for a vaccine, and doing research for same, in the very early days of the pandemic, when many said it would take 7 years to get a vaccine, if one could be found at all. Do you not remember in early Dec 2020 the first members of the public in the world being vaccinated in England / the vaccine programme being rolled out there?

I never mentioned the vaccine so what this has to do with your spurious lie about students receiving the PUP but I guess you're now willing to try anything to deflect.

You are doing your best to be disingenuous and not for the first time. I asked you simple questions regarding your claims against the Irish government, claims that you knew to be false but threw them out there simply as a deflection against criticis,m against hte UK government's relatively slow and poor response to the pandemic.

However, I am aware that this is derailing the thread so I'll stop. In future, I'll ignore your posts* given that you, I and everyone else here already know that we cannot trust their content.

* obviously I'll pay attention to them in the forum I moderate but you already know that given all the warnings you've picked up in the past.

end of the road · 13-10-2023 3:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232313#Comment_121232313

still nope wrong on my part.

your figures were shown to be out of date which means your claims are bogus.

Sleepy · 13-10-2023 3:58pm

Did the OP mis-spell Reich? Because there's certainly a strong bang of the Third Reich off this Tory government...

Badly Drunk Boy · 13-10-2023 4:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232313#Comment_121232313

Here are some statistics from the UN. The numbers are the rate per 100,000. Multiply by 10 to get the rate per million, and your 11.7 for England & Wales in 2021, but Ireland is only 4.4.

https://dataunodc.un.org/dp-intentional-homicide-victims

Francis McM · 13-10-2023 4:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121233069#Comment_121233069

The links I showed you are the latest available, and refer to 2022 etc.

In the 12 months ending March 2022, the homicide rate over there was only 11.7 per million population

By contrast, there were 69 homicide offences recorded in the Republic of Ireland in 2022, so Ireland's homicide rate was higher / worse than UK.

There were 5,149,139 people in the State in April 2022, so Ireland's homicide rate was approx 13.4 per million.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/homicideinenglandandwales/march2022

https://www.statista.com/statistics/945262/homicides-in-ireland/

How could homicide statistics for 2022 be out of date? Do you have the statistics for 2023 yet? Do you have next weeks or next months homicide statistics, or next weeks lotto numbers either by any chance?

You are obviously a troll.

end of the road · 13-10-2023 4:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121233285#Comment_121233285

yes your claims were bogus.

Francis McM · 13-10-2023 4:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121233316#Comment_121233316

You disregard the statistics and the links provided. You remind me of another poster on this thread.

Is the UK now giving off strong Third World vibes?

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