What whisk(e)y are we drinking? (Part 2)

lawrencesummers · 13-10-2023 12:04pm

Midleton Very Rare Forêt de Tronçais €5,000.00

More power (pun intended) to you if you can be affording such things but i think in time we might look back and ponder the stupidity of some pricing of certain whiskeys or more so some purchasing of things like this for prices like this.

I know a lot of people have more money than sense, and this bottle looks smashing and the whiskey should be amazing, but that price is crazy.

Black Sheep · 13-10-2023 12:50pm

People in the watch forum periodically make the same argument, about the cost of an Audemars Piguet Royal Oak, or a special edition Rolex Daytona.

It's all relative, of course: If you're wealthy enough, there is no sticker shock for luxury goods.

The inability of the vast majority of the public to afford them is, basically, irrelevant to the parties making the transaction.

What is one person's unaffordable grail, or something they just consider an absurdity, is another person's casual purchase...

Is it crazy? Is it immoral, even? Meh, it's just life.

Beanstalk · 13-10-2023 2:22pm

Sometimes I wish I had your stoic approach @black sheep but I can't help being sad about it, dissappointed even.

Fair enough if theres a premium range for a premium market but all their best whiskies seem to be getting out of our reach. And 5000 quid for a bottle of whiskey is outrageous and a clear attempt to market to the super rich in the midst of a cost of living crisis.

Yellow Spot is no 90 quid, up from 75 a year or two ago. Green spot leocille barton is now 20 quid dearer. RB CS is up 20 quid too. These go beyond energy costs and are just imo an attempt to premiumise these ranges toward a macallan style of marketing. I took a punt on the Powers Johns Lane CS cus its 12 years old and cask strength, but I just find the spot whiskies and the redbreasts falling out of reach and its a real pity.

I'm not going to go off on a big socialist rant again don't worry!

Black Sheep · 13-10-2023 2:45pm

Well, I am not splashing out on a 5,000 whisky, or wearing a Rolex Daytona, but tbh I don't have much to be stoic about, I am very comfortable. So I'm not sure it's stoicism, I would say it's just that I try to be happy with what I have. The likes of a Power's John's Lane cask strength would be within my reach as a treat, and I'd consider that pretty good going. Generally I'd spent 40-60 euros on whatever I'm drinking, and since I'm only drinking whisky on the weekends now, it's not so bad.

But also, as far as luxury goods go: I don't actually think there's anything unethical about distilleries targeting the super rich, to be honest. It's just a niche business area.

It's not the distillery's fault that there's a cost of living crisis... I was going to say its not the super rich person's fault either, but I suppose that depends!

Prices certainly are rising, across the board, including in whisky, although I understand it's slowing compared to late last year.

It's unfortunate, but I tell my kids that if they want a particular standard of living, they need to plan to earn to support it. Even to things like, maybe if you want to buy, and live, in the area you grew up in...

(Can I just point out, I'm not a boomer, I'm way younger, because that did sound like a very boomer-ish thing to say...!)

Beanstalk · 13-10-2023 3:58pm

haha ok well that's good advice Ill be telling mine the same! by stoic i was referring to your outlook rather than general way of life btw i don't know how you live and wouldn't dare to presume! I think i'm probably personally having a hard time accepting that life is throwing new costs my way every day and I'm going to have to accept that whisky is something Ill have to cut back on even more than i already have.

I did quickly purchase a cheeky Master of Malt bottling of single cask Blair Athol at 55.8% 9 years old for £32 today. I'm not sure why thats so cheap. i am suspicious, but also curious.

Black Sheep · 13-10-2023 4:25pm

Well, Beanstalk - you're not alone in feeling a bit ground down, I definitely hear similar from other people, particularly those who are renting in Dublin, or any of the cities.

Completely off topic, but I really like stoic philosophy. It's become a bit of a "bro" thing, in some quarters, and there are lots of books about stoicism that are selling well, but I always say that the best thing someone can do if they're interest is just download or print out the Enchiridion, by Epictetus. I don't think there is a more concise, clear and useful stoic text, although there are those which are better known.

The Internet Classics Archive | The Enchiridion by Epictetus (mit.edu)

Beanstalk · 13-10-2023 6:26pm

I know it well!

Thanks for sharing. Stoicism is always good to consider in terms of how to approach things. Living that way of life is difficult in today's world but you can still practice the gist of it.

A good read by a fire with a good malt.

Insect Overlord · 13-10-2023 9:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121229000#Comment_121229000

Slight change of plans tonight. Decided to sample a few small measures of other whiskeys first. Started with the Legendary Midnight Silkie (46% - blend) and Redbreast Lustau (46% - single pot still) and then opened the Thomond Gate Clash of the Ash (49% - single malt).

Enjoyed the Thomond Gate the most, despite earlier expectations. There's a nice mix of sweetness and smokiness to the Silkie but I think it needs to breathe more.

Kept the stronger stuff til last. RB12 cask strength is probably my favourite whiskey of all time and I even prefer it ahead of the RB27 (sorry, Adaminho!) The John's Lane CS has a great kick to it - all flavour and no "burn" if you want to use very simplistic terms. Blue Spot feels *extremely* spicy by contrast after the Powers.

Electric Nitwit · 13-10-2023 11:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121234813#Comment_121234813

As far as simplistic terms go, all flavour and no "burn" is a great recommendation! Must get me some

Also, loved the stoicism/philosophy chat 🙂

lawrencesummers · 14-10-2023 9:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232099#Comment_121232099

It reminds me of the musings of Sir F Boyle.

Only the very rich and the very poor can boast about the sheer act of having bought a thing. For the middle classes it's all about connoisseurship. You can't boast about your spending power, so instead it's about your taste, as you burrow deeper and deeper into the marketed life. Connoisseurship is what used to be boasted of by merchants – 'Look at all the lovely stuff I've gathered to sell.' We're still merchants but now we're selling the idea of ourselves. And, of course, our personal taste is largely meaningless, but it's all we've got, so we give it the force of moral judgement.

odyssey06 · 14-10-2023 12:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121235999#Comment_121235999

It is a great quote although things have moved on for the middle and the boasting is also about grabbing a bargain, I bought X half price; or maybe I bought this wine / whiskey for €20 and it is just as good as this €50 one.

Black Sheep · 14-10-2023 1:20pm

I remember bartending in NYC, and at the time, 20 or so years ago, the whisky to drink, if you wanted to show money, was Johnny Walker Blue. It was THE bottle to be seen buying, for both (for example) Italian Americans, WASPS and the well off Asian Americans. It had that instant recognition, and perception of being the best. A lot of the guys drinking it would have had no interest in any other whiskies, their next order might have been a brand of champagne.

Not being snooty about it, btw, just how a part of the whisky market works!

I wonder what that kind of cohort in the US are into now- Macallan? High end bourbons? I have no idea.

odyssey06 · 14-10-2023 2:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121236603#Comment_121236603

An expensive Macallan was name checked / used as a plot McGuffin in the new Frasier series but maybe they paid for that.

I think there was a craze for expensive cognacs in the States few years back.

Beanstalk · 14-10-2023 4:44pm

Aye it must be Macallan. It has its own category in whisky auctions along with the other scotch regions. Speaking of luxury brands I just read a news article LVMH who own Ardbeg are facing a steep decline in purchasing of their premium spirits. They've been pushing out mediocre Ardbeg releases at inflated prices and are ruining the brand so serves them right

Black Sheep · 14-10-2023 5:22pm

Which releases do you mean?

Beanstalk · 14-10-2023 5:34pm

Most of the committee releases. Most of them are very poor value for money. Ardcore, Scorch...all over £150 and absolutely not worth it. They they put out that nft nonsense a year ago where they dug a hole in a bog with a big digger and buried a cask in it. Just silly stuff. Selling that single cask for £16 million. The marketing too is rubbish with all the comic book stuff. They have a beautiful brand and location they don't need it.

Their core range is still solid enough tho.

I hate to be seen to be giving out all the time folks, sorry. 😂

Beanstalk · 14-10-2023 5:41pm

I should add Ardbeg are one of my favourite distilleries that I have a real soft spot for

Black Sheep · 14-10-2023 5:41pm

Ah, yes, I have never ponied up for one of those. Ardbeg collectors stuff is pricey alright. I feel like it's the same people into it, since the late 1990s. Their buying power has only gone up, as they got older.

I like pretty much all the core range though. I want to get another bottle of An Oa soon.

Beanstalk · 14-10-2023 5:51pm

Aye An Oa is quality. The 10 is back in Sainsbury's in the north again and it's £40 on offer. I love Uigideal and Corryvreckan, both just smack you about the chops drinking them

Beanstalk · 14-10-2023 5:58pm

I have a 19 year old Ardbeg stored away with two tasting glass from the distillery for when my wee one grows up. I tell myself she'll enjoy the moment but she'll probably hate it and I'll just end up drinking it but it's the thought that counts obviously. 😃

Electric Nitwit · 14-10-2023 7:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121237638#Comment_121237638

I've got my two MVR 18 and 20 for the same reason, and deeo down i expect a similar reaction 🤣

Beanstalk · 14-10-2023 9:23pm

I just have nightmares about her finding it as a teenager and stealing it for some party where it will all get mixed up with cheap cola. Can you imagine that. Horrifying

Anaki r2d2 · 14-10-2023 10:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121238695#Comment_121238695

The only way to drink whiskey is your way! Is that not the way it’s told??

MVR 2018 with Coke Zero, I’d say its class😩

JMcL · 16-10-2023 3:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232099#Comment_121232099

A lot of this stuff is classic examples of Veblen goods. You can add the like of Leica cameras to the list. As several others have said it's about brand recognition and status symbols moreso than any notion of quality. You can get something at similar/close to/maybe even better quality for a fraction of the price but it wouldn't carry the same cachet. For a period in the late '90s I could have just about stretched to affording Bordeaux 1st growths for special occasions, then they took off in the Chinese market and that went out the window to the point that now their second wines are way out of my league (though I bet they're no better than when I was paying 30 quid a bottle for them). The whisk(e)y market doesn't seem to be any different.

Black Sheep · 16-10-2023 4:33pm

The Veblen goods theory is interesting, I hadn't heard of it before, but it does seem a powerful explainer of how (most?) luxury goods pricing works.

I had a sample of Sullivan's Cove French Oak many years ago, just before this Australian distillery's pricing shot into the stratosphere. It was a phenomenal whisky, and well worth the various awards it won shortly after. It's pricing remains high, particularly for desirable single casks. I do wish, sometimes, they'd been overlooked a little longer.

I really like a lottery system, as some whisky shops implement for particularly in-demand whiskies. Every year, I enter them to try and buy the Buffalo Trace Antique Collection at RRP. Having been successful one year, I do think paying just shy of 200 GBP per bottle is "good value" in that particular case, considering the excellence of the bourbon. The secondary market prices... Veblen goods territory for some buyers seems likely for sure.

Bahanaman · 16-10-2023 7:26pm

Won a Waterford Distillery twitter competition last week. The prize arrived today!

Bahanaman · 16-10-2023 7:28pm

Sorry about the sideways photos.

Insect Overlord · 17-10-2023 10:01pm

I've had a bottle of JJ Corry's "Black Friday" for a few months now, and (I must be honest) I was not very impressed with it. I think it arrived at my door in July and I kept sampling it beside other blends from the same bonder, but kept feeling underwhelmed.

Anyway, long story short, I had a drop of it tonight (around the halfway point of the bottle) and suddenly I just get it. Fabulous stuff altogether.

odyssey06 · 17-10-2023 10:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121252167#Comment_121252167

You are not first person to describe a bottle that way... is it an acquired taste? Or, something in the flavour changes from being opened... though I thought only wine did that.

the beer revolu · 17-10-2023 11:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121252250#Comment_121252250

I believe spirits can change somewhat once opened and the less liquid in the bottle the more the change.

Lots of whiskies take me a while to "get".

What whisk(e)y are we drinking? (Part 2)

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