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Should the sale of second-hand electrical items be banned?

2

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,448 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Of course you could offer lots of statistics, if you bothered to do the research. But the people who compile those statistics, never recommend that people can't buy second hand. In fact, people are being encouraged in this age of recycling to pass on appliances to other people in need.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,281 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    Have you had an electrical fire as a matter of interest? You seem overly paranoid about second hand goods.

    I actually collect and use second hand electrical items. Everything from videogame consoles (have had hundreds go through my hands over the years) to vintage hifi equipment, old computers, vintage arcade PCBs, machines and monitors, loads of old CRT TVs. Lots and lots of stuff with electricity running through it.

    I've taken these items apart. Climbed inside of arcade machines.

    How many times have I been shocked? Zero.

    How many fires have I had break out? Zero.

    Unless you're plugging in something from the 1950s that's spent 70 years in a damp shed it's probably fine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,612 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    It's not "turned in to", it's peoples patience wearing out

    Beliefs and opinions can, despite what some people thing, be utterly wrong and nonsensical. You've now admitted this is a personal belief based on nothing. And it is wrong and nonsensical

    Considering you think a normal washing machine costs 500, I'm sure your local electrical retailer loves when you walk in the door



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,842 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Good point . Yes I mean electric shock ..... or electrocuted if it was fatal and you came back as a ghost to tell the story😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,842 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Your talking of low powered electronics, I'm talking of high powered in the kw power range with metal outer cabinets that heat up and can give electric shock if not earthed properly or repaired shoddily/incorrectly by unqualified people , think washing machines tumble dryers and dishwashers etc...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,466 ✭✭✭✭kneemos



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,281 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    The second hand market for kitchen appliances is absolutely tiny compared to other electronics. I can't say I've ever bought a second hand washing machine or know of someone else who has.

    They tend to be bought new and used until broken.

    The main second hand electronic market is in smaller consumer devices (Which would be the likes of what some second hand shops and the car boots you mentioned sell)

    Can't say I've ever seen someone selling old washing machines and driers at car boots.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,448 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    I think the economy in general depends to a fair extent on waste and people buying things they don't need. Even food, of which vast amounts are thrown away without being eaten. So there is bound to be a good deal of that happening in the washing machine market as well. I read that machines should last about 10 years. Houses changing only every 10 years would not support the array of machines I see in the shops. I think it was mentioned in the thread already about the amount of perfectly good stuff that gets left off at recycling centres. And apparently there are more mobile phones in the country than people.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,842 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    of course if I were a washing machine engineer say and was called out to a washing machine and it was getting on a bit and needed a major part I would be wondering yeah but if you replace that at a high cost and then something else goes wrong on the machine and it has to be scrapped still then , then thats the money down the drain. (I would still get my callout & check/diagnose charge) I can see where they are coming from .

    i know we have to try and repair and repair and repair again - and keep electrical for as long as possible and cut down on e waste .... but in another way we also got to realise as well on the other hand that everything has a life and when something has come to the end of its natural working life... then it needs to be retired/gone



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,448 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    When we have solved the Great Washing Machine Crisis, we can then turn to the stuff that goes into the machines to get washed. The vast amounts of clothes which is being dumped by people buying more that they don't need.



  • Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭1percent


    Once had a fine kenwood food processor, there was a safety mechanism where a little pin in the base would engage only when the lid was fully sealed stopping the motor engaging and a potentaly messy incident of the blade "helicoptering" out of the bowl at 2000rpm

    So one day the piece of plastic in the lid that engaged the pin broke and so a useless broken food processor or at least that would have been the case if clever little me didn't figure out a folded up piece of cardboard wedged into the slot on the base would hold that pin down.

    Got another 6 years out of that food processor and 10 quid on done deal after that. But I did spend 2.50 for a get well soon card when I heard what happend the buyer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,842 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    start another thread on people dumping vast amount of clothes and buying more they dont need - and at least you cannot get a shock/electrocuted and dont catch on fire from buying too many clothes 😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,717 ✭✭✭Feisar


    I'm all for mend and make do however if it's not something Dad or myself can do it's never worth my while repairing something. Cost of labour has made repairs prohibitively expensive.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,842 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    of course - and the extortionate charges what the professionals charge sometimes causes some people to "I will have a go myself" or their friends going "I've got a mate who can do that cheap for you" and can end up repairing it , but compromising its safety. I have bought a few used secondhand things here in Ireland and as I say I check them over when I get them home . I had a microwave oven once where someone had replaced the power lead to make it a longer lead , they had put 2 core lead on it and the earth wire was just cut off inside the microwave oven. Of course you could not see that just looking at the outside of it - so potentially it was un-earthed!

    A used washing machine i bought from done deal or adverts I cannot remember now, someone had chopped off the moulded plug and put on a 13a plug and didnt do up the screws inside the plug ... so that could have eventually overheated and caused a fire. - there have been some other electrical things I have bought in the past that I am glad I give them a once over check before plugging them in.

    Again , couldnt afford to buy new so forced to buy second-hand and then potentially put in danger of burning the house down or getting an electric shock just because of my finances.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,612 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Are you basing your entire bonkers campaign off one single dodgy sale on adverts??



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,842 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    you only choose to read what you want to read from my posts , you must do.

    I cannot emphasise enough in my posts how many times numerously I have bought a used electrical item for myself and checked it over when I have got it home and someone has made a dodgy repair job on it or something is jeopardised its safety



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,104 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    “One lady owner”

    Yeah right; my grandma was no lady.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 695 ✭✭✭mykrodot


    bought a 2nd hand freezer chest (upright) a few months ago for €90, its fantastic, barely used. Seller wanted a quick sale as they were moving into new house. I probably wouldn't ever buy a 2nd hand fridge as I'm very fussy about food things and smells. Likewise washing machine unless it was almost new.

    But I think we should be renovating, re-using, fixing and selling as much used stuff as possible. It was always the way when I was a kid. We have way too much going into landfill. We still have a disposable society. Way back a washing machine lasted a lifetime, so did an iron. If it broke there was a man who could fix it! Nobody died.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 18,695 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kimbot


    I honestly think at this point we should have a government provided service for our second hand electronics which they can then repair competently and use those electronics in council homes and provide for those that are in need in society.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,281 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    Why are you buying used microwaves when they can be had fairly cheap new? Here's a Microwave for a hundred euro

    If you need to buy a second hand washing machine because you can't afford to buy a new one, how are you going to suddenly be able to afford buying a new washing machine if second hand ones are banned? You won't be able to buy a washing machine then.

    Maybe your theory needs to be applied to very specific selection of appliances? I'd agree that nobody should be buying used microwaves and dryers. Not unless they're extremely high end well made models (I'd imagine most people just buy cheap/middle of the line stuff)



  • Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭Baba Yaga


    my father bought a fridge new in 1965 i think it was,maybe 66,i was only a kid anyway...we sold the house in 1995,that fridge was still working,still in the kitchen,i visited the old home place last summer,that fridge is still in the kitchen and working....i think it will outlast all of us,why cant fridges be built like that anymore?


    "They gave me an impossible task,one which they said I wouldnt return from...."

    ps wheres my free,fancy rte flip-flops...?

    pps wheres my wheres my rte macaroons,kevin?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,842 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Well I only posted it to get other people's ideas on it- I didnt realise it was going to get official with people wanting figures and statistics and all that





  • What??? In 2023 you didn’t expect the first post to be asking for your peer reviewed study??

    andy.. cmon



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,842 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    excellent Idea- I would be in support of that, as long as they were repaired properly and they were not ancient models, and you could still get parts for the appliance there would be no reason not to recycle then and put them into council houses and give to people in dire need who cannot afford to buy a new appliance



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,448 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    98.3% of your posts are stuff you make up in your head, and then ask what we think about it.





  • I’d argue that’s 99% of all threads on AH!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,842 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    why cant fridges be built like that any more? - well for a start it has dangerous refrigerant gas/chemical in it damaging to the environment (maybe you are not worried about that) and because items were not as mass produced years ago using the cheapest of materials and quite possibly every fridge that left the factory in them days were quality tested , whereas these days you will be lucky to get 1 out of every 100 fridge produced to go through stringent quality testing at the factory these days ... then of course people would not want to pay / would not be prepared to pay in todays money what that fridge cost in 1965 , (if i have my calculations/conversions right £1iep in 1965 = €25 in 2023 - I dont know if irish punts were out in 1965, or would that have been pre-decimalisation? ) - fridges are cheaper these days, mass produced, not all quality tested and use cheaper parts (thinner metal and plastic and parts that wear out quicker than a 1965 built fridge)





  • that’s actually not true re quality checking

    theres laws surrounding the quality of electrical goods and they must pass a certain level of safety.

    Naturally all things can fail so it doesn’t indicate a lack of quality control. Then of course there’s the smaller electronics market with less regulated products and downright dangerous things

    but let me assure you that a cheap Chinese mp3 player setting itself on fire doesn’t indicate that a second hand washing machine is going to burn your house down.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 18,695 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kimbot


    Im sure they are plenty of people on the dole/retired etc that would be well qualified to do this job and top up their pay/entitlements as part of same, get rid of alot of scrap waste while also providing jobs and security/appliances to those that need them.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,572 ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject


    There's enough built-in obsolescence with electrical goods as it is, if they can be bought secondhand that will reduce waste when people opt for newer and shinier.

    The EU is pushing for repair to become the norm rather than replace too.





  • A lot of the time it’s not as easy to repair things because manufacturers make it hard.

    You can have all the know how in the world but without access to proper parts and schematics you’re pissing into the wind. Repairing a product with counterfeit parts because you can’t get access to OEM means it won’t last as well or indeed be as safe, this is all down to the manufacturer.

    Then there’s the likes of Apple or Samsung who solder components to the fcuking logic board so it’s impossible without serious skills and equipment to repair these.

    If you are interested in this subject you should check out Louis Rossman on YouTube he does logic board level repairs on MacBooks etc and talks a lot about right to repair and the hardships repair shops run into because of manufacturer policies.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 18,695 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kimbot


    Yeah i do agree there are tonnes of small electronics that are hard to do but for the like of large scale appliances it really should be done. Most parts can be gotten off the shelf and I would have alot of experience with that. I work in a prison where tonnes of the electronics are repaired rather than dumped and it saves us a massive amount of money in the long run. Mostly all of what is done here is Kettles/TV's/Toasters/Fridges/Washing Machines/Tumble Dryers and most of the repairs are not too extensive bar cleaning the insides of the machines and maybe replace a part or two.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,842 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    its got to be a cheaper way of making stuff , not making it easier for people repair. - you imagine years ago when things used to have screws in them and screwed together. Great for the repairer to take apart. You imagine the manufacturer now no screws needed and they can just 'clip' the case together , or glue it together or mould the outer casing . you might say ah come on screws are a minimal cost ... but you add all them screws up for hundreds of thousands of the item they produce .... soon adds up and adds to the cost of manufacturing the item





  • There’s no excuse for soldering parts to the logic board on a laptop that costs €5,000 at its highest spec.

    none.

    sorry, my mistake, it’s actually €7,699 for the highest spec MacBook Pro 16”.

    I can’t upgrade the ram after buying it though because it’s soldered to the logic board. I also can’t change the SSD. Or the battery.

    In fact all I can do is turn it on and do the things Apple has decided I’m allowed do. If it breaks I have to pay them €€€’s to fix it.

    The irony? They don’t even fix it. They recycle it and send me a new one. Why? It’s too complicated even for them to fix.

    There’s no excuse. None. 0.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,842 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    cheaper for them to make - plus it could also be a better way of doing it/ more reliable. the amount of times I have had to re-seat RAM in windows PC's and laptop is a lot ... because they are in sockets- in that resepect if the RAM is actually soldered onto the main board its one less thing to fail because it has not got a socket to fit into with poor contact. Had that been cheap chinese design sure you could get dry joints or not enough solder used or poor quality solder used ... but not on a quality apple product though the soldering would be top notch



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,842 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    i used to fix kettles, toasters, vacuum cleaners 2 bar fires, radios and VHS video recorders (to a certain extent) back in the 90's used to get the parts handy enough from quinnspares in Dublin - parts were plentiful, most stuff were 'unscrewable' - i do remember a time when manufacturers started to use odd screws though to deter people removing the screws to repair them , they werent normal posidrive ones or torx screws they had their own weird screws.

    in the end I was getting less and less repairs, prices were starting to come down on small electrical appliances and it was getting cheaper to buy brand new than repair . - but for a certain time window a lot of people were going for the repair option.

    back in them days there was no such thing as the WEEE so all the discarded electrical items really were going into landfill!

    Post edited by Andy From Sligo on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,842 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    you seem quite angry (or anger management issues) or stressed 😁



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,555 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    ... not more reliable with all the fun that was had with brittle lead free solder joints for several years after it was introduced.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,104 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    You’re posting this like you’re an expert in





  • You don’t need to be an expert to be informed. I’ve a lot of experience with electronics since I was a teenager.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,104 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    Accidentally posted before I finished writing. But I’m glad you still got my point.

    Of course you need to be an expert before making absolute statements like “there’s no excuse. None. 0”. Because it’s a nonsense statement, and anyone who remotely know what they were talking about would never make it. The fact that you state that the RAM is “soldered to the logic board” is solid evidence of the laughable lack of knowledge you actually have.

    The RAM in the modern Apple chips is not soldered to the logic board. It’s integrated into the CPU itself. If you don’t know the difference between that and being “soldered onto the logic board”, then you should probably go back to the basics, regardless of your teenage experience with “electronics” (whatever that’s supposed to mean exactly).

    It’s done that way for the massive power and thermal savings the approach affords, which results in higher performance consuming lower power in a significantly smaller size. These are the very clear and obvious reasons for doing it. There is absolutely no way to have the RAM as a modular element in a SoC (System on a Chip) architecture. It would be like having your hippocampus as a separate organ to your brain.

    For better or worse, once Apple decided to go down the route of SoC design (for the significant performance to power ratio it enjoys), then that decision was made for them. Yes, they could utilise an architecture that uses modular components - as they did in the past, and as other manufacturers do still. But they wouldn’t be SoC, and their computers would be bigger, more power hungry and more reliant on fans or active cooling than they are now.

    The SoC design is not about saving money or making manufacturing easier (it’s more costly and more difficult to make). It’s simply a very specific and deliberate approach to performance.





  • I’m acutely aware of the thermal effects of non modular components. it was also done to slim down the designs and make them more compact.

    However, it’s absolutely feasible to run them with good performance and thermal levels while maintaining an easy to repair machine.

    Apple (and not just them but they’re the biggest ones) have spent millions on lobbying law makers to fight against right to repair.

    I can sit and have a reasoned discussion with you about this if you like? I’m more than happy. I may have said there’s no excuses, I didn’t say there was purely no reason.

    There is no excuse to render a €7,000 laptop ewaste because the ducking battery failed. A competent repair person could easily fix, but Apple won’t let them.

    Granted they are better now about it I think in the states Apple will sell you parts, it’s still a major problem.

    I just don’t think we should be sending expensive electronics to landfill for a few % more power and a few degrees cooler.

    edit: for example I have a razer blade 15, modular battery, SSD & ram. It’s about as thick as a MacBook Pro and way better performance compared to the base model.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,116 ✭✭✭Mech1


    My 1st thought on reducing ewaste is to remove the rule saying that someone can't pick something out of the ewaste skips outside of power city etc. Loads of stuff in there that is ripe for reuse as is or easy repair by people like myself with a little bit of knowledge.

    Same as in the council recycling depots fridges dishwashers etc are full of unbroken drawers, shelves, clips, wheels etc that could save people loads of money on buying spares or scrapping there own. But no scavenging allowed is the rule.



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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,624 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    In the real world one of the quickest ways to make a profit is to buy a company with a name for reliability, close the factories and replace what they make with cheap shoddy Chinese crap for as long as you can get away with it. Never assume a business is in the business of business. When they change hands too often it's asset stripping with a bit of transfer pricing. Compare the UK water companies payouts to shareholders to the amount they underinvested in their core business.

    At best we live in a world where assets are being transformed into income streams. Brother sell printers. HP sell ink though they'd much rather you sign up for a subscription.





  • Wonder why that is? I presume just to stop people behaving like a murder of crows around recycling bins.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭nachouser


    I once saved a washing machine by buying a new belt for it and then watching a youtube video about how to use a cable-tie to fit the seemingly too damn small belt to the drum. I basically invented fire in that moment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,842 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    so different to the old days - in the 90's there was a lovely fella run a (independent) at our local TV and electrical shop (RIP bless him) I used to go in there and say "you havent by any chance got a switch/motor /pump for my washing machine" - go up the back and work away he used to say , help yourself take what you want , and I would climb and clamber all over the ovens and washing machines and fridges all in the rain (so they would be all slippy) no mention about "oh my insurance does not cover you going through the stuff" or anything like that. Sometimes yep I would cut my finger on a sharp bit of metal on the edge of a washing machine cabinet, nothing a plaster wouldnt fix - blimey it was a different time altogether back then (better) and like the manufacturers near enough kept all the parts the same or similar - if i wanted a indesit or Hotpoint washing machine motor or a pump all the same across the range and very easy to find parts for



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,572 ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject


    How did you escape electrocution? Not only did you salvage parts from used electrical appliances, but you fitted them yourself.

    Now you think buying something secondhand is a surefire way to find yourself laid out in a coffin.



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