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Rugby world cup post mortem

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,930 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Crowley really only burst onto the scene this year. He showed his metal in matches against Leinster and Stormers this year.

    However starting him would have been a huge call. However he should have been on with 15 minutes to go. Sexton was out on his feet at that stage.

    Not only that he should have been considered to start against Scotland with Sexton rested for the NZ game. We knew the order in which the games were going to be played.

    The over dependance on certain players was crazy. Take the bringing on of James Ryan at the end of the Scotland match. Had we other options. We only needed a bonus point against the Scots. Ya you want to keep momentum going but management of rotation is important

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,221 ✭✭✭saabsaab




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,930 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Hard to know when he was not available. TBH I wound not be critical of either lock but rotation of players was an issue and these decisions highlights the lack of thinking around rotation.

    The Scottish game was a particular bruising game

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Perhaps? Like maybe drop him down to 3rd choice?

    You're entitled to your view, but I suspect not a single coach or player in world rugby would agree with it. Take what you will from that, but I suspect that is why almost no one will take your views on Sexton in good faith.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,261 ✭✭✭threeball


    I remember after we were dumped out of the last world Cup, O Gara, saying that we needed to forget about 6 nations etc and build for 4yrs time. By the time the 2nd six nations came round he was back pushing for a win. Its ingrained in the IRFU psyche, the scarcity mentality, win now, later might never come.

    So there's no building towards the future. No real strength in depth. No real trust in the supposed back up players. We were the only team with decent prospects in the tournament who failed to rotate their squad and that alone is an indictment of the management and a receipe for failure in an attritional sport.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,259 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    i didnt think henderson was that great tbh

    right after the 2019 rwc, o gara suggested that if sexton were to keep playing then maybe he should move to being a bench player who could help bring on the younger options while being there to close out games and thus prolong his career. now, he also said JS would almost definitely not be happy to do that but it might be (have been) the best option all round

    tbh it was my way of thinking at the time too but in fairness JS has put in some unbelievable performances since then so its hard to know



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭TheCitizen


    No, I didn’t say that.


    Why do some posters here insist on making stuff up and try to make out that others they disagree with are saying something that they actually didn’t? Seems to be a common theme with those who don’t like views that they disagree with. Unable to argue on what was actually said so just pretend that they said something more extreme and then argue on a false premise. Usual stuff and poor form.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Ireland have blooded plenty of players during the AF era. He even has a history of giving time to players who aren't even first choice at their province - JGP. Other players he has brought in quickly, Hansen pretty much straight off the plane and Crowley has more Irish starts at 10 than he has Munster starts in the CC at 10.

    Experimenting for the sake of experimenting is worthless and absolutely pointless if there isnt a desire to use the wider squad. The Irish coaching ticket clearly made the decision prior to the tournament that they weren't going to rotate. It explains some of their selections over the past few years and the WC squad itself and means that additional experimentation would have been of zero benefit.

    That shortsighted unwillingness to rotate proven capable squad players is far more an issue than any 'experimentation' that didn't happen.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    It's not hard to know. Sexton was one of our best players while we went on an unprecedented winning streak. Crowley wasn't in the picture 2 years ago.

    I mean, AF gave chances to RB, HB, even Frawley. It's not like he didn't try! Carbery got lots of time but frankly just wasn't good enough. If anything he should be the perfect example of how picking a player and sticking with them doesn't necessarily make them good enough.

    Sexton is (was 😭 ) just way, way better than everyone else.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Crowley should have been number 1 out half in my view with Sexton backing him up perhaps.

    your actual words. So what did they mean? Because the only logical reading of that is that Crowley should have been starting 10 and maybe Sexton backing him up.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,441 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    I'm still too deflated for post mortems.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,603 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    To be fair, this:

    Perhaps? Like maybe drop him down to 3rd choice?

    Is a perfectly reasonable reading of this:

    Crowley should have been number 1 out half in my view with Sexton backing him up perhaps.

    There's a heavy suggestion of what Podge was asking there. If that's not what you intended, why not try to clarify?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    In what specific way do you think not rotating the squad caused the problems that resulted in the loss on Saturday?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,675 ✭✭✭Field east


    In ,circa, the last 10 min of the match and especially in those 28 odd passes before the final whistle most / all of the Irish players were ‘ on their last legs’ - but most especially was Sexton. He was basically just standing in the line and just passed the ball as soon as he received it and then just stood there again to repeat same. Looked like as if he was bereft of ideas, looked like as if he had given up , was going through the motions , etc, etc. I reckon that he was totally, totally exhausted , was probably carrying some physical pain. It was not like him at all. Management should have SPOTTED it and replaced him. It’s not up to the players to tell management that they need to be replaced.

    maybe management felt that Sexton ‘s rugby brain was reason enough to leave him on for the full 80 min? We are all experts in hindsight



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭TheCitizen


    Fair enough if the manager didn’t think he was ready to be first choice but as you say he should at least have been on for the last 15 to 20 minutes and should have started a game or two earlier in the group stage so that he would be match fit to come in when needed when Sexton was goosed which he was before the end on Saturday night.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,559 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Yet plenty of people have mentioned the advantage the SH teams have.

    World Rugby is looking at a global season. Plus at the moment SA are nearly playing a full 12 month season, it's not sustainable.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    He was perfectly match fit, that was not the reason he was not brought on. He was not brought on because Sexton is a significantly better player, even when goosed. Would it have been better to have Crowley on? maybe, it's a pretty marginal call to me. But that is entirely about in game decisions and nothing to do with the Scotland game or the 6N.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭TheCitizen


    With his age profile they should have been expecting to need to take him off. I think they were slow with necessary in game management in both the big games v South Africa and New Zealand.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭TheCitizen


    I can’t agree with that, not at this stage of his career when he’s out on his feet, Sexton is not a significantly better player in those circumstances. That’s the criticism many have of the manager’s decision making in that regard.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,600 ✭✭✭✭walshb




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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    We lost structure when Crowley came on against Scotland.

    Ultimately, it is still irrelevant to whether or not Crowley should have started against Scotland or in the 6N. He wasn't brought on because Farrell thought leaving Sexton on gave us a better chance of winning. We did make 50/60m up the pitch in that period after all, so it's not a ridiculous assertion.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,603 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    We lost structure when Crowley came on against Scotland.

    Fwiw, I disagree with that tbh, Podge. Crowley did perfectly well in his time on the pitch. Any problems we had in that 30 odd minutes on the pitch had little to do with Crowley.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I've not watched it back and it's not always easy to judge these things in the stadium (especially at stupid 9 o clock games with a full day of boozing), so I will defer on this one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,930 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    We did not win the game did we. It was a crazy decision to leave Sexton on for the full match he is 38 years old he is a shadow of the player he was last year not to mind 5+ years ago.

    O'Gara WA right on one thing Johnny wound not play second fiddle to another player. He was never redl team player. On more than O E occasion he threw a wobbly over being taken off.

    If Farrell had no confidence in Crowley or banned him for the late concessions against Scotland he should have Ross Byrne on the bench.

    NZ knew with 10+ minutes to go that JS would not be making any serious runs and would be passing out along the line or kicking so they did not need to actively mark or shadow him.

    It was a serious error letting him on.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,700 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Just watched the end there on Against The Head, Sexton was running into the ruck (twice) trying to get the ball in the final play.

    Tired, but hardly out on his feet and useless.

    A lot of exaggeration going on today.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,261 ✭✭✭threeball


    He brought a squad but gave them very little time, even against the minnows. Beating 3rd rate teams by 70pts was of no use to us when our back up players weren't getting up to speed and taking the workload off the first 15.

    Jimmy O Brien was excellent for the 20mins we saw him for. Had he been given his chance against Scotland we would have had a fully fit Lowe or Hansen in the QF.

    The Scotland game wasn't overly physical but we lost some key players and preparation time due to fielding the same 15 yet again.

    I cant see how anyone could argue that we should have been going full strength or close to it for Tonga and Romania.

    I can almost guarantee that if you look back through world Cup winners or finalists of the last 3 or 4 tournaments you will find no teams that rotate their players as little as we did.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1 Eam.o.


    Mad how no one is calling these frauds out. When it comes to the crunch, Ireland rugby has won 0 games. Forget the 5 nations, when it comes to the supposed big deal of the 9 nations cup, 8 teams have won a quarter finals match when the fodder have been eliminated. Our heros / warriors haven’t won a bean.

    it’s now successful to get within a score of a team ranked 3 places below them with NZ playing with a man less f-r how long?


    the narrative needs to be challenged #Loserd

    Mod: Trolling. Two week rugby forum ban.

    Post edited by aloooof on


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,459 ✭✭✭Dick phelan


    Honestly why are people acting like this was a shock result. FFS they haven't lost to Samoa in the QF. What I thought was obvious before the tournament began was 4 teams were ahead of the rest and 2 of them would be gone at the QF. The tournament so far has shown the gap between the top 4 and the rest. 4 years ago was an embarrassing disaster beaten by Japan and hammered by NZ. This time we hammered the 5th ranked team beat SA and lost a close game to NZ.

    Both QF have shown there's a score between those 4 teams and on the day small margins will win it either way. In the series we beat them 2 1 but again the games were seriously competitive. Yes Ireland's scrum and lineout were poor but to suggest Ireland completely flopped is ridiculously negative. Yes it's very disappointing but Irish rugby is clearly in excellent condition and plenty of talent coming through still.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,259 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    no previous tournament has had a rest week though, id agree it probably wasnt the best use of the squad overall but i can also 100% understand why the teams were picked as they were given how the fixtures worked



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,700 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Who said it was a WC success? we lost the match.

    Rugby is as successful as soccer over the timespan of the respective WC’s. Irish rugby has won everything available to win bar a WC.

    It really doesn’t require the affirmation of all. If it doesn’t rock your boat, find something that does. My partner hates it and manages to avoid it in a rugby mad house. Enjoys soccer and enjoys it in a soccer mad house, ditto GAA

    I don’t know why you think you are being defrauded, what have you invested and why did you do it, thinking what you do. Sounds a bit deranged to me TBH



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