"I started a joke, that started the whole world ......" | Ireland v New Zealand.

awec · 17-10-2023 9:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248637#Comment_121248637

It's not really the same as France, France will definitely be back.

Will Ireland ever have an opportunity like this again? No, I don't think so, certainly not with this generation of players. We are losing too many key men, this was our peak when all our stars were aligned. We managed to keep a 38 year old Sexton fit. We had no real injury problems.

This was our opportunity and we didn't take it. We're now going to go through the dreaded transition phase, I fully expect our standards will drop, how far is anyones guess.

This is not like the previous exits, this one is way worse. This was honestly the opportunity of a lifetime for these players and we didn't perform to our very best.

17-10-2023 9:34am

People express hurt in different ways. As I said Sunday, I'll never watch that game again.

Cheap shots.

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2023 9:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248659#Comment_121248659

Seriously?

What basis have you for that prognosis?

I agree by the way it was a great opportunity, but it didn't happen, as many many teams before have found before us and France after us. They certainly seen a home WC with the team they had as a huge opportunity.

I don't see why you are so depressed going forward. We may have to transition a bit but I have faith in the systems and structures that we can rebuild and we know the way back, we know what the effort has to be, and we have learned a bit more.

snotboogie · 17-10-2023 9:48am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248277#Comment_121248277

Both the JGP try and Aki try were very soft from a Kiwi perspective. Failure to execute basic tackles on their part.

Green Peter · 17-10-2023 9:53am

Only one team can win the competition, all the rest will be failures, sport is tough, armchair analysis of it is easy.

awec · 17-10-2023 10:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248742#Comment_121248742

These sort of posts are so vacuous.

Perhaps we should just close the forum down, since the entire purpose of a rugby forum is armchair analysis. What are you expecting here, 72 pages of "oh, sport is tough, it's grand, we'll just move on. Sure we won a series, it's grand, none of us were ever pro rugby players."

Yes, only one team can win the competition. If Ireland played to the best of their ability they had a very good chance of that one team being us. The best chance we've ever had. We didn't play to the best of our ability when it really, really mattered, and so we passed up on a monumental opportunity. It's bizarre how you don't get this.

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2023 10:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248787#Comment_121248787

Who doesn't get it Awec?

I don't understand the gripe here. Or what you want to do about it bar analyse what went awry and try to do better the next time.

We have been here before, 'there'd never be another team like the one Brian O'Driscoll was on', etc etc but there was and it was better and it reached heights we (or certainly I) never thought could be reached.

walshb · 17-10-2023 10:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248787#Comment_121248787

They lost a match to an elite team that most folks would have made a 50/50. Lost by a very very small margin. Your whole argument is “didn’t perform to their best” is every bit as lazy as others you are criticising for their take.

NZ and Ireland made mistakes. It’s bound to happen. That’s what sport is about. We weren’t perfect, but rarely is any team “perfect.” NZ were quite a tough team to beat Saturday

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2023 10:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248873#Comment_121248873

I think that NZ team will make a strong challenge for the title now.

walshb · 17-10-2023 11:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248960#Comment_121248960

They have every bit a chance to win as SA/Eng and Argentina.....I'd make them slight favorites.

Podge_irl · 17-10-2023 11:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248659#Comment_121248659

To be fair our U20s are looking very good year on year (albeit, perhaps not quite as good as France). I think the possibility is there for a regeneration that has us at the same/similar place in 4 years.

But this was definitely a missed opportunity. Ireland screwed up. That just doesn't mean that the previous four years or the philosophy and coaching was all inherently wrong. It's quite a lot to read into a held up try after all...

awec · 17-10-2023 11:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248873#Comment_121248873

They lost by a small margin, but they still lost. Losing by 1 point or losing by 100 points, it's still losing. Are we supposed to be comforted by the fact that we lost by less than a score? How bizarre, how small time.

There is some serious revisionism going on here in some inane attempt to avoid having to be in any way critical of the team. Ireland lost because they did not play to the best of their ability, for whatever reason people are continually glossing over this. This notion that Ireland had to play flawlessly to beat NZ on Saturday is also nonsense, again this is just revisionism trying to big up the opposition so as to avoid having to say anything negative.

If Ireland had played their best and lost, this "that's what sport is about" garbage would be valid, but we didn't and so this is an entirely vacuous point. It's meaningless.

Sport is about winning. World Cups are about getting the job done when it really, really matters. We didn't do this, which is why you're all here trying to find excuses about what went wrong, rather than just admit that we screwed it up.

castor 1 · 17-10-2023 11:22am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248659#Comment_121248659

How many WCs have France won ?

This tournament was in their back yard and they failed by tiny margins and nobody calls them chokers, because they are not, and neither are Ireland.

Although Ireland will be devastated by the loss they will be back too.

walshb · 17-10-2023 11:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249076#Comment_121249076

Your posting on this has a very arrogant (not you personally) “we are entitled to win” vibe off it.

We played some brilliant rugby and we made some errors.

Is this something that should NOT have happened? You can’t allow for errors?

Also, you absolutely need to factor in the strength and skill of the opposition. This was a 50/50 match. We came up short ever so slightly. I think folks are far too hung up on this world ranking..

on their day the top 4-5 teams can beat each other. We were very close to being winners last week

and just because some people aren’t “slating” the team doesn’t mean we are celebrating.

you don’t have to slate/diss a team to provide structured and balanced criticism.

ignorant folks bandying around the bottler talk is just peolme delighted we lost so they can do this.

FrankN1 · 17-10-2023 11:24am

Some think we bottled it and some think we didn't.

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2023 11:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249076#Comment_121249076

There are valid criticisms Awec. But there are also invalid ones. That's the discussion.

They'll be addressed at the top level, of that I have no doubt.

Nobody is avoiding them. But the perspective has to be kept.

Every single weekend teams lose, that is as much a part of sport as winning is. Sport is about both and how you cope with both.

Blindly thinking that we should have win because there was some sort of mystical level we could attain is not right either.

Two equal teams went toe to toe and tragically, disappointingly, we were not able to get the score that mattered.

That hurts, that was a missed opportunity and nothing can now be done about that. Same situation has faced thousands of teams down the years.

All that can be done is to analyse what went wrong, what we can do better in future and to rebuild again.

I know there was no trade off - WC or bust - for me. I want to go again because that is why sport is great,

awec · 17-10-2023 11:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249057#Comment_121249057

I think the previous 4 years and the philosophy were spot on. I know nobody on here wants to admit it right now, but Ireland were going into this tournament with a view of winning it. That was the correct attitude, the opportunity here was huge. As I said before, this was the first time ever that Ireland could genuinely view themselves as legitimate contenders not requiring favourable draws or avoiding certain teams.

I think Farrell did a great job preparing us, he brought Irish Rugby to a level it hasn't been at before and expectations were, quite rightly, raised. We had set the bar higher for ourselves, again rightly so.

But we made a total balls of it on Saturday night. We didn't put in a performance where you can genuinely say we gave it our absolute best shot. We didn't die with our boots on. In reality, the performance was fine, it wasn't terrible but it certainly wasn't one I think the team will be delighted with.

Sexton is going to be a huge loss to this squad, not just on the field but also as someone who is well known to drive standards in training and off the field. POM will be a massive loss in the pack. Murray will be gone. Henderson, Beirne, these guys are going to be mid-30s. Gibson-Park will be 35, he's probably going to be gone. Lowe will be 35. Aki will be gone. Henshaw will be 34.

Bealham will be gone. Furlong is young enough to be around, but he isn't playing like someone who has 4 more years in the tank.

By the time the next RWC comes round a lot of the spine of this team will either be retired, or be in the absolute twilight years of their careers.

snotboogie · 17-10-2023 11:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249057#Comment_121249057

Thought we were extremely average from 11 to 15 at 20’s this year. I don’t recall seeing a standout center or back 3 at the 20’s level for some time, maybe King but he struggled for gametime. It’s a bit worrying when 4 of our starting 7 backs on Saturday came from outside the Irish system.

awec · 17-10-2023 11:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249102#Comment_121249102

We were not entitled to win, nobody is suggesting this. It's not arrogance either, it's just a general fed-up attitude toward some of the small time loser attitudes on here, pretending like we're still little old-Ireland who used to celebrate Triple Crowns and beating a big team now and again.

If we had played our best, nobody could have complained here. You said it yourself, on their day the top teams can beat each other.

On Saturday night, in our biggest game ever, we didn't make it our day. We didn't play our best. This is something worthy of criticism, if we cannot get ourselves right for games like this when where are we really?

"Ah sure, Ireland just screwed up the opportunity of a lifetime as they didn't play their best, but it's grand lads, that's just sport." Give me a break.

Podge_irl · 17-10-2023 11:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249123#Comment_121249123

I know there was no trade off - WC or bust - for me. I want to go again because that is why sport is great,

This is the main take away for me. There is no trade off, and I don't understand people who can't enjoy a 6N win for what it is.

awec · 17-10-2023 11:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249176#Comment_121249176

"For what it is" is the main point here. I can enjoy a 6N win.

A RWC win would have eclipsed any 6N win by quite a distance. No 6N win is going to take the edge off Saturday.

Green Peter · 17-10-2023 11:49am

Good teams get stopped playing well by better teams or better prepared teams tactically. The breaks didn't go our way, inches separated us from a win with the held up try. don't be looking to degrade a team who have brought us so close and the luck didn't go their way.

awec · 17-10-2023 11:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249217#Comment_121249217

Absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with luck.

Podge_irl · 17-10-2023 11:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249186#Comment_121249186

Sure. I don't have an issue with your take on the World Cup. We absolutely did not take the chance that was presented to us.

Ultimately, on the defensive side I think NZ took advantage of an existing flaw in our shape that other teams haven't managed to do so and it's hard to change that mid-game (**** Joe). But on the attacking side for sure we fell down.

I stand by my view that we were playing at maybe 90% (call it 80% or whatever, it doesn't really matter), and that was still enough to bring us incredibly close against a NZ team we gave a 13 point headstart to. We have done a lot incredibly well, moreso than any other RWC. Perhaps that's why it hurts so bloody much. But the changes needed are small this time, and I think that is worth acknowledging.

awec · 17-10-2023 12:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249255#Comment_121249255

If the RWC happened every year this would hurt less, we'd get another go at it soon enough. If that were the case I'd agree, possibly small changes.

But the 4 year cycle does impact things quite significantly.

Green Peter · 17-10-2023 12:05pm

I disagree

Nermal · 17-10-2023 12:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249107#Comment_121249107

Surely in order to bottle something, you have to be near certain to win it and commit an unforced error to lose it.

Even SB51, mentioned earlier in the thread, doesn't qualify.

Now if we had a penalty 10m from the posts to win in the 81st minute and missed...

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2023 12:06pm

I think some people, even seasoned rugby followers, did allow themselves to feel a little bit entitled.

There are lessons to be learned there for them too.

See through the hype and media before a game.

Saturday was never more than a 50/50 shot. That's the bottom line.

Green Peter · 17-10-2023 12:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249228#Comment_121249228

I disagree

awec · 17-10-2023 12:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249296#Comment_121249296

Saturday was more than a 50/50 shot. Ireland playing to their potential, I would put their chances higher than a coin toss.

17-10-2023 12:10pm

One Northern Hemisphere team in 36 years have won this thing.

We were one of 4 equal favourites. You have to take your beating like a man sometimes. France were the ones at home. Imagine we lost in the Aviva. Perspective and treating the the two imposters the same etc.

Some of you think the team owed you personally. I'm feeling it more than you, I'm a much better rugby supporter than you BS. Well you're going to have to go cheer yourself up if that's your attitude. Because no one died, and no one is going to put up with that. It's called 'sport' for a reason.

Podge_irl · 17-10-2023 12:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249303#Comment_121249303

Ireland playing at the level they did still made it basically a coin toss. Had we played to our potential we should have been 10 points clear. But we didn't for whatever reason - I'm sure some of that was NZ but not all of it.

Water John · 17-10-2023 12:13pm

This is a great read on last weekends rugby by a great writer. The losing and winning margin was very fine in both games in Paris. Flagellating the two teams that lost, really doesn't understand sport.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/oct/17/how-world-cup-quarter-final-drama-turned-the-key-to-rugby-heaven

Strazdas · 17-10-2023 12:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249255#Comment_121249255

Were we at 90% because NZ disrupted our play though and wouldn't let us get to 100%? Teams can dip below their usual form if they come up against a very strong opponent - not a given that we would have beaten them on any other day either.

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2023 12:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249303#Comment_121249303

NZ always had the potential to match us. They did. It's what many of us fretted and debated about for months in the lead up.

Clearly some were not listening and just assumed we would be let play the game on our terms.

Buer · 17-10-2023 12:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249296#Comment_121249296

I think it was better than 50/50 and we were rightly marginal favourites ahead of the game. But we didn't deliver on the night.

I'd agree that I think a section of support had themselves convinced we were in the final already though given the potentially weaker semi final opponent. And I think NZ absolutely used that feeling (which was absolutely magnified by the media, both Irish and foreign) to feed their motivation.

They really wanted to put one over on Ireland. I don't think many in Ireland picked up on the edge between the two teams in advance (and it may have largely been one sided) but NZ took that and ran with it. You could see how much they enjoyed it and got into a bit of sledging towards Sexton and POM.

Furze99 · 17-10-2023 12:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249156#Comment_121249156

Things didn't go well from the start: partly due to NZ pressure & tactics, partly due to some questionable refereeing, partly due to luck and the bounce of the ball. Luck comes into sport as much as anything at this level. On a different day, some of these factors would be the other way and we'd have prevailed. It was effectively a semi final that we narrowly lost - just how it goes. I'd agree with others though that leaving a knackered Sexton on the pitch wasn't great - no room for sentiment or wishful thinking.

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2023 12:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249384#Comment_121249384

We were slight favourites...IF...and that 'if' was, or should have been for any rational person, a huge part of the thinking.

We were slight favourites if NZ brought a certain game, the one they had been playing.

As we know now (and I certainly thought it was possible) they didn't bring that game they brought a much better game than they had been playing.

I agree on what motivated them and how much they enjoyed the win.

Strazdas · 17-10-2023 12:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249407#Comment_121249407

I think we were a bit blinded by the No.1 ranking and the 17 match unbeaten run. If anything, those two stats may well have worked against us in the knockout stages. (Having said that, even if NZ had been favourite and we had been underdogs, we might still have lost narrowly....it's all conjecture).

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2023 12:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249445#Comment_121249445

The 'could have's, would have's, might have's, hopes and disappointments' that keep sport being played for centuries, because that is the lifeblood of it, essentially. And long may it continue.

Dubinusa · 17-10-2023 12:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248659#Comment_121248659

We will be back. Stronger imo. The landscape in rugby looks bleak for quite a few nations. Us and France on the other hand, have the young talent to keep standards high. Our young lads coming through are brilliant! The level is outstanding. I've full faith for the future.

17-10-2023 1:08pm

Let's cut to the chase about posters totally denouncing our performance against New Zealand.

Are they doing it out of concern for the team? No.

Are they doing it out of concern for Irish Rugby? No.

Is it self pity? Yes, absolutely. They were sure we'd win and they were going to derive great personal pleasure from this. Now they want someone to blame because they didn't get their jollies.

Two words. THAT'S LIFE

17-10-2023 1:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249547#Comment_121249547

100% 2 U20 Grand Slam teams etc. Better position now than 4 years ago.

Dubinusa · 17-10-2023 1:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249594#Comment_121249594

No doubt. Some serious players in there.

awec · 17-10-2023 1:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249589#Comment_121249589

Is this really the depths we're at now? What absolute rot.

Nobody was sure we'd win, it amazes me how you still don't get this at all.

Nobody is totally denouncing our performance, have you not been paying attention?

Our performance against New Zealand was not up to our usual standard. This is a fact, I think even the most myopic, pom-pom waving denier of reality has to accept this. This "totally denouncing" our performance stuff is just more vacuous nonsense, nobody is doing this, but again, people who for some reason are very uncomfortable saying anything negative are engaging in total revisionism here.

The performance was ok, it wasn't awful, it also wasn't great. This was not Ireland giving it absolutely everything and just being beaten by a better team. That is absolutely not what happened, no matter how many times you try and convince yourself of it.

The reason I am frustrated, and therefore unwilling to write this off as "just sport", or "sure we won the series", or "sure we'll do well in the 6 nations again" is that I really cared, this was the chance to do something that would have totally eclipsed any achievement in our past. The chance was there and we didn't give it our very best shot. How anyone can be so willing to just shrug that off is beyond me.

"That's life" - why would you even bother.

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2023 1:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249641#Comment_121249641

If you hadn't considered that there is no 'usual standard' that our performances have been variable then you may have cared but you didn't take care to allow for the possibilities.

Our performance varied on Saturday, from nervous to very good to making mistakes. So too did NZ's but they prevailed. That is what happens when two even teams go toe to toe.

Please don't try and say now that you 'cared more' than others. Again that is just rubbish. You cared but you didn't allow for that essential quotient of an evenly balanced contest - unpredictability.

jackal · 17-10-2023 1:31pm

It’s very disappointing but there you go. Everyone cared, everyone knew that this team had the potential to do it. The draw meant two of the quarters were going to see two of the top four gone. All would have seen themselves as contenders, not least France… at home!

What’s your suggestion other than shrugging it off?