World cup 2027. Were do Ireland go?

Kermit.de.frog · 17-10-2023 12:41pm

I'm seeing opinion that Scottish and Welsh Rugby are both on the verge of a lower standard as they don't have much quality coming true. Ireland seems to be in a bit of a better place right now in that regard at least.

bilston · 17-10-2023 1:23pm

Just pick the best side for the 2024 6Ns, we've 5 more tests in 2024, 2 against SA in July and 3 next November where the team can be rotated.

Injuries, form and retirements will mean some form of change for the 6Ns anyway.

Wegians89 · 17-10-2023 1:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121250008#Comment_121250008

Has there been any word on what tests are lined up for November actually?

Lost Ormond · 17-10-2023 1:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121250071#Comment_121250071

Nothing yet and nothing likely until after world cup at least

conquestscarer · 17-10-2023 1:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248553#Comment_121248553

I know hes very young and probably shouldn't say this but Hugo McLaughlin was the best player in the senior cup at fullback the last 2 years IMO. If he can continue to develop I think he has a shout of making it by 2027. Obviously a mile away yet but has to be considered when he was miles better than lads a year older than him in 5th year.

conquestscarer · 17-10-2023 1:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249698#Comment_121249698

I definitely agree with this he is better then a lot of front liners IMO.

crusd · 17-10-2023 1:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121250008#Comment_121250008

All our 12's are 30 and older, and the youngest of those 3 has a concerning injury profile for example. Dave Kilcoyne could probably do a job off the bench in the 6 nations but is he enough ahead of the players who will be around in 4 years time. Given he already lost his Munster starting place to Loughman last season, no. Murray's form has returned a bit, but also, 2 30 something 9's in 2024? Where there is a call to be made, it should favour development for the next 18 months

awec · 17-10-2023 2:34pm

The 2024 6N is going to be the same team really, with the obvious omission of Sexton. As far as I remember, it's only Sexton and Earls who are entering immediate retirement.

We have a number of players whose contracts are up at the end of this season, they will all still be selected unless they change their minds and decide to retire early.

The 2025 6 Nations team will be influenced, IMO, by the 2025 Lions tour. That will influence how many of our aging players stick around for the 24/25 season. There's a decent chance Farrell is the Lions coach for that tour, and getting on the Lions tour results in a good payday for players, if they think they have a chance they might decide to stick around.

Even longer term, in terms of the next 4 years, I think Ireland are losing a lot of key men. Sexton, POM, Murray, Aki are definitely not at the next RWC. I think Lowe is unlikely, JGP 50/50. We'll have a lot of players in their mid-30s. Furlong is not playing like a player who looks like they can play another 4 years, and Bealham will definitely be retired.

Add onto this that we can no longer use project players to fill in gaps in our team. This will impact other teams more than us (Scotland), but it will affect us more than France, NZ and SA.

The 2024 6N is going to be between us and France. Beyond that who knows, it'll depend how quickly certain players retire and whether or not their replacements are the same standard. It'll depend on injuries, and lads being able to maximise their careers.

I think by the time the next RWC comes round, Ireland will not be in as strong position as they were going into this RWC, this one had the feeling of the stars aligning in terms of our squad, we amazingly managed to keep a 38 year old Sexton fit and the rest of the team had the perfect blend of experience. I think the 17 game winning streak is something we'll be waiting a very, very long time to replicate.

Dubinusa · 17-10-2023 2:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121250364#Comment_121250364

I take a different view. I think we'll do very well. There's so many lads on the horizon it's ridiculous.

I doubt there's going to be much change for the 6nations. Maybe 1 o2 coming into the 23. But we will be a tough side to beat.

onlyrocknroll · 17-10-2023 3:07pm

I don't think that we have to "go" anywhere. This is not like previous world cups where we crashed out in humbling circumstances, exposing deep underlying problems. We were simply beaten narrowly by another one of the shortlisted favourites by one score. Horrible but no soul searching needed. Sexton moving on is likewise not a calamity The future looks exciting with Crowley at to be challenged by Sam Prendagast shortly.

thebaz · 17-10-2023 3:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249522#Comment_121249522

agree, for Dorris to have his worst game in green, and Van der Flier loss of form , you are going to struggle against any all Black team , especially one with Kane and Savea at ther best. Thats where the game was lost for me.

if ther was one player that should have been rested in the pool games it was van der Flier , he looked cooked, was ther a decent alternative, how Dan Leavy has been missed - anyway

Pete_Cavan · 17-10-2023 3:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121250008#Comment_121250008

But what is our best side for the 2024 6N? I don't think we should automatically assume that it is the team from Saturday minus Sexton.

For me, there are big question marks over if Furlong and POM are still the best in there positions. I don't think we'd lose anything from playing Bealham and Prendergast/Baird, we'd almost certainly gain in the medium term if not immediately. Doris v Conan is 50/50 right now.

Maybe we need the team from last Saturday for the trip to Paris but it would be a waste sending all the same lads out the following week when Italy come to Dublin. We should be looking at Casey then for sure, ideally another LH too. JoeMc could overtake Beirne and Henderson in the next 12 months and needs competitive starts. We'd also beat Scotland and Wales at home with these lads plus the core of the team from Saturday.

Buer · 17-10-2023 3:37pm

We have to continue to evolve and change. We've lost Sexton. We're about a year off losing POM and Aki. The game plan will have to change with those three missing.

I'd imagine we're going to see 4 or 5 lads brought to SA for exposure, if not any significant game time similar to how Furlong and Bealham were blooded on the 2016 tour (and a few others who didn't work out ultimately).

We're also going to have to go away and look at our set piece. It was found wanting significantly in the two crunch games where we really struggled in both line out and scrum. Whilst there was general confidence in sorting it out and we did manage to resolve issues during games, it was a huge problem and likely cost us a semi final spot given the damage it did in the opening 30 minutes of Saturday.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a coaching reshuffle similar to two years ago or a new coach brought in to supplement proceedings. I think it's important that they draw a line under this and very clearly create their new era. Meeting up in December/January with the same voices/message minus the biggest on field voice, will just lengthen the shadow cast over the last week.

Come the 6N, POC will be the shortest serving coach there at 3 years. There isn't really any other coaching team with the combined length of service as the Irish team given Easterby will have a decade next year and Farrell is there 8 years next year.

TRC10 · 17-10-2023 4:03pm

Killer, Healy, POM, Murray and Aki should all be moved aside for the 6N. They won't be, but they should be. Everyone else will be looking towards 2027 and we'll be going hell for leather to win a 6N and some "test matches".

I'd give Coombes a run in the 8 jersey. Maybe he's good enough, maybe he isn't, but I'd give him a shot. Doris is probably the most overrated backrower in World Rugby.

aloooof · 17-10-2023 4:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249522#Comment_121249522

I had the exact same thought with regards Doris. I think he was the biggest disappointment in our RWC overall, particularly in light of how amazingly well he started 2023. His form at the start of the 6 Nations was incredible.

Similar to you, at every setback in the game, I always felt we had a chance to get back into it, right up until that knock-on. When you consider the effort we put into those 38 phases at the end of the game, if that had come from Doris gathering at half-way rather than in our own half, it might have been the difference...

hahashake · 17-10-2023 5:22pm

Cane put a few big hits on Doris, no doubt they specifically targeted him.

Dubinusa · 17-10-2023 5:49pm

Maybe Conan is a better option than Doris. Coombes is behind Prendergast. Coombes isn't the answer. Not fast enough or athletic enough, imo.

I hope they start looking at a new 12. Henshaw and Aki have too many miles. Henshaw is injured too frequently. McCloskey is too old also.

There's lads coming through. I don't think we'll suffer a drop in form. At least not a big drop.

bilston · 17-10-2023 6:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121250071#Comment_121250071

Haven't heard.

I'll guess NZ, Argentina, Fiji (or other Tier 2 side)...only because we played Australia and SA in 2022...

bilston · 17-10-2023 6:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121250120#Comment_121250120

One Hugo is enough in the team for now!

macslash · 19-10-2023 1:40am

Anyone able to copy and paste the RO'C piece in the Independent on the possible team for 2027. Behind a paywall and my usual way around it isn't working this time. Thanks

RichieRich_89 · 19-10-2023 4:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121250731#Comment_121250731

You really think the likes of NZ and SA are going to dispense with anyone they think won't make 2027 straight after this World Cup ends? I don't think so.

It's probably between Aki and Jordie Barrett for best 12 in the world right now, I'd say; some others might say Danty, but I dunno...

There's a 6N game away to this formidable French team and you advocate just not picking a world class player? You can bring Jamie Osborne (who I view as the most likely long term 12) into the set up without dumping Aki.

RichieRich_89 · 19-10-2023 5:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121257344#Comment_121257344

There's this: https://archive.ph/gfxuS

...but I think the graphic showing his suggested team doesn't make it.

OldRio · 19-10-2023 7:35am

I find the idea that Ireland immediately dump one of the players of the tournament odd as well.

macslash · 19-10-2023 10:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121257404#Comment_121257404

That's great thanks 👍

Mr Tickle · 19-10-2023 11:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121250156#Comment_121250156

In a situation like scrum half and loosehead, where two of our first 3 are 30+ and will be very borderline by the next WC, I think the way forward is to pick the best of the two for this year and replace the other with a prospect.

So for the 6N our scrum halves would be something like Casey, Doak and one of Murray or JGP (probably JGP).

For Loosehead, it's probably Porter, Loughman and Healy/Kilcoyne (tougher call with the age difference).

The difference being, I'd be giving as much of the bench minutes to the prospect as I could justify. Then hopefully the prospect grows into a capable replacement over the next two years, and another prospect can fight their way into contention.

Dubinusa · 19-10-2023 12:47pm

As good as this side has been, time doesn't stand still. I would hope for at least 2, maybe 3 new lads given minutes in the 6nations. By all means, stick to the tried and trusted but, for the home matches a couple of new additions would be beneficial. Not just against Italy. We should have enough to beat Wales st home with 1 or 2 changes.

Podge_irl · 19-10-2023 1:00pm

I would remind everyone that our succession planning for the 10 jersey has been quiet methodical and well planned over the last 6 years with significant investment of playing time in alternatives and look where that left us. You can't magic players out of thin air and you can't control what happens to them when they get their chance.

Augme · 19-10-2023 1:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121258867#Comment_121258867

Outside of Italy, when and who was the last OH to start in a 6 nations game outside of Sexton? There's lot of phrases that we can use to describe succession planning for the 10 jersey, methodical and well planned isn't one I'd use.

Podge_irl · 19-10-2023 2:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121259100#Comment_121259100

Joey Carbery. Before him Paddy Jackson (actually Billy Burns, but let's ignore that one).

Absolutely huge amounts of gametime were invested in both.

TRC10 · 19-10-2023 2:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121259100#Comment_121259100

No other out half over the last 4 years has even come close to putting their hand up to start a 6N game.

RoyalCelt · 19-10-2023 2:16pm

Where do they go?

Australia.

Buer · 19-10-2023 2:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121259100#Comment_121259100

Carbery away to France last season.

We had a lot of attempts at succession planning. Loads of guys were given opportunities and some across a period of time but never really grabbed it. Carbery has almost 40 caps. Ross Byrne has 22. Madigan has 30. Even Carty and Burns have 11 and 7 caps respectively.

Paddy Jackson has 25 and really was the one that was expected to be the successor to Sexton but that was taken out of the selectors hands.

The coaching team have made concentrated efforts to give significant game time and opportunities to other players over the last 6-8 years. The above pool of players have started games against every other tier one nation aside from New Zealand and Carbery had significant game time against them (over 50 minutes in one game) last summer. At some point, we just have to accept that they're not delivering and move on.

Hopefully Crowley establishes himself now as a top level test player. He's had a significant amount of investment over the past year already so hopefully he's ready for starting bigger games.

Augme · 19-10-2023 2:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121259224#Comment_121259224

They were in Joey Carberry and then he's dumped just before a world cup. I can't see the logic in that myself. Even at that, he started against France due to an injury to Sexton. I never got the impression from the management team that there was a serous effort to not just put all of our eggs in the Sexton basket.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121259231#Comment_121259231

They haven't, but relying on a 38year old outhalf to bang out 80 minutes every week isn't going to get a team very far either.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121259275#Comment_121259275

I'm not sure it's a case of whether they grabbed it or not, it's more of have these players been fully developed and prepapred to play at their highest level possible if called upon? That's the bare minimum of what you want and would expect going into a world cup.

The argument about having to accept they aren't good enough and move on is fair, but the flip side is that you also have to accept that a team going to a world cup need a second string outhalf, and That second string outhalf is going to probably need to play some minuted. Especially when you're first choice out half is 38.

I just got the impression the Irish management team never face up to that reality when you look at how they've approach the position over the last 24 months or so.

Hopefully he does take over, but also hopefully there's a serious effort to have two players at outhalf who are battled hardened come the 2027 World Cup.

AbusesToilets · 19-10-2023 3:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121259231#Comment_121259231

Jackson totally fucked the planning at OH, it was basically a complete reset when all that mess happened. Probably ruined Carbery as a secondary consequence

Dr. Bre · 19-10-2023 3:54pm

If Ireland are a top seed then they will go to a semi final

Podge_irl · 19-10-2023 4:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121259383#Comment_121259383

They were in Joey Carberry and then he's dumped just before a world cup. I can't see the logic in that myself.

He wasn't good enough. It's really not that complicated. But he is the perfect example of the fact that simply giving someone more and more gametime doesn't necessarily make them any better.

Crowley has been identified as an option but realistically he was never going to get into the international picture any earlier. He was pulled from relative obscurity as it is.

ulsteru20s · 19-10-2023 4:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121247315#Comment_121247315

I can see massive benefits for leinster if furlong continues to decline. For ireland, it would put a lot of chips on a mccarthy/boyle/milne bet.

Wegians89 · 19-10-2023 6:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121259807#Comment_121259807

More I think about it the more I dislike the idea of Porter moving back to tight head

lawred2 · 19-10-2023 6:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240469#Comment_121240469

Are we bored of six nations? Won so many they are meaningless now.

ScissorPaperRock · 19-10-2023 7:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121260367#Comment_121260367

Nah. Can't wait for Feb, tbh.

lawred2 · 19-10-2023 7:22pm

Exactly.

El Vino · 19-10-2023 7:55pm

I think the Where Ireland go from here depends on where Leinster go from here. If Nienaber changes the playing style significantly Ireland may have to follow suit. Leinster are likely to be the bulk suppliers to the team for the foreseeable future to use a Thornleyisim, they have also come slightly unstuck at the business end of the season in the last couple of years so they will probably have to make some changes which inevitably feed through to Ireland.

Lost Ormond · 19-10-2023 8:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121260600#Comment_121260600

Nonsense. We can't approach this like that because the two levels are not the same especially at a world cup.

Leinster changing should have zero impact on Ireland.

bilston · 19-10-2023 8:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121260600#Comment_121260600

It's been a while since I watched Leinster play, but from memory they and Ireland played differently anyway, so I'm not sure Nienabaer will make that much difference.

Ireland's game will evolve anyway. I suggest a new coaching appointment, either before the 6Ns or before 24/25 would be a sensible move just to add a bit of freshness. Not sure where or who you'd move on. Someone may move on through choice anyway.

ulsteru20s · 19-10-2023 11:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121260717#Comment_121260717

I’d say they have diverged over the last year but the roles within the system are pretty similar.

Wegians89 · 20-10-2023 8:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121260717#Comment_121260717

I hate to say it but you’d have to look at Paul O Connell and how the lineouts misfired at the World Cup. It was an issue in the warm ups and wasnt corrected. Would keep the current team up until the lions tour, assume there will be movement then if things don’t improve

bilston · 20-10-2023 9:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261800#Comment_121261800

I think the worrying thing about the lineout as that the evidence would suggest it wasn't a personnel issue. It didn't matter if it was Sheehan, Kelleher or Herring throwing or Ryan or Henderson calling the lineout. There were issues in all combinations. And the players names above have all been part of excellent lineouts in the past.

I would back Paulie to go away and fix it, but yeah if the same issues still exist in the 6Ns you'd have to wonder where we go from there.

Paul Smeenus · 20-10-2023 12:30pm

Sadly, I don't know why you'd back POC to fix it. I mean, we were at the RWC. He had unfettered access to the forwards, and no distractions on the horizon. He had, as you point out, excellent players on hand that were proven and had delivered countless times.

If he's not going to fix it over whatever - six weeks? - under those circumstances, I have no faith he'll fix it for November,

bilston · 20-10-2023 12:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121262739#Comment_121262739

I'd back him because he has also been coach when the lineout has functioned well.

Paul Smeenus · 20-10-2023 12:42pm

If he can turn it around, i'd rather he'd done it in France.

World cup 2027. Were do Ireland go?

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