"I started a joke, that started the whole world ......" | Ireland v New Zealand.

ionadnapokot · 18-10-2023 12:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121253898#Comment_121253898

NZ proved they are the superior KO rugby team.

I do still feel Ireland were unlucky with the bounce of the ball on a couple of occasions but they made a few poor decisions at the start of the game and that was ultimately the difference.

Dubinusa · 18-10-2023 1:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121252271#Comment_121252271

Agreed.

Dubinusa · 18-10-2023 1:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121252370#Comment_121252370

It's also possible N.Z played out of their skins. I don't think we were great, obviously the man advantage for 20 minutes would show that. We won 17 in a row, some of which we crawled over the line. I can't fault the effort. I fault the glaring mistakes. It was our best chance ever to win a RWC, we fell short. We were outplayed and out coached.

On the day we weren't good enough. It was close and we fell short. It does hurt! I'm pissed off too. There was so many if's about us, the line out, the scrum that we failed to fix. On the day we were not as good as the kiwis, imo.

awec · 18-10-2023 1:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121253898#Comment_121253898

Some posters have said that if Ireland played 100% and NZ played 100% then Ireland would win. But that's not possible is it? Part of playing at your best is stopping your opponent playing their best. The old saying "no plan survives contact with the enemy". NZ stopped Ireland and Ireland stopped NZ.

Ireland didn't really stop NZ though, we coughed up some really cheap scores and made some huge mistakes at key moments.

As I said all along, I believe had Ireland played their best, and shown the form we've seen them capable of playing, that game was there for the taking. This isn't a certainty of course, but IMO we were more than good enough.

My issue with all the stuff on this thread is this narrative that Ireland could have done nothing more, nothing went wrong, everything was fine, we gave it our very best shot, that's just sport, nothing to discuss, let's just move on, as if Saturday was absolutely nothing, sure we'll go again in the 6N, something something series win. This robotic, almost soulless take on the game is in some ways pretty patronising, like we're still little-old-mediocre-Ireland-of-old. There's even an article in the Irish Times today, written by a NZ journalist, where the tone is basically "Ireland can be happy cause they made NZ play better to beat them". Supremely patronising, but on par with some of the commentary in this thread.

I do not believe that if NZ had made the same mistakes as Ireland, dropping restarts, missing easy kicks and ended up going out that the NZ fans would be so blasé about it as we are being, but then this is indicative of the different mindset. We are accustomed to bad results in QFs, the actual result of this match wasn't as bad as we're used to, so we're clinging to this a bit.

All of this is being construed as "entitlement" or other such garbage terms by posters who cannot accept that some people's perspective on this game is not overwhelmingly positive, this is very frustrating. As if we're all to behave like mindless clapping seals on here. This is not entitlement, this is simply me, as a supporter, having belief in my team, and being disappoint both at and for my team not delivering a performance at the level they have shown themselves to be capable of, at the time when they needed it most.

They are absolutely not bottlers or chokers, but they absolutely will have huge regrets. This was not "just sport".

Yeah_Right · 18-10-2023 1:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121254094#Comment_121254094

Well it depends how far you want to go back. The last 4 years has been a shambles. Losing to Argentina is unforgivable (especially in NZ), losing more than one game in AIs is really bad and losing the series to Ireland at home is awful. Though all those things have resulted in a coaching shake up and the resulting media storm has put pressure on the players which has no doubt steeped their resolve. The reaction in the game in SA after the Irish series being a prime example.

On the plus side, the ABs have kept the Bledisloe (suck it Australia) and won the RC 4 years in a row. That's nice but RWC is what AB teams are judged on.

This year, they looked good in the RC. The game in Twickenham, was a meaningless money spinner where the result didn't matter but the manner of the loss was an eye opener. The opening match against France, I always expected to lose but not by that much. I thought we would get a bonus point. Since then it's been steady improvements building to the QF. Once they new they were playing Ireland, that was the focus.

That series loss last year hurt the players. They wanted revenge. There is definitely some niggle between the 2 teams. From what I've heard the ABs players (in general) really don't like some of the Irish lads. POM and Sexton being the main two. Respect them but dislike them and really wanted to get one over them. A lot of this obviously comes from the fact Irrland has a few wins over the ABs in recent years. That's obviously going to piss them off.

So overall the prep has been good. No injuries to key players. Should get past Argentina and then it's the Boks in the final. SA will start favourites IMO but hopefully that defeat in Twickenham will be a bit of extra motivation.

FrancieBrady · 18-10-2023 1:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121254358#Comment_121254358

My issue with all the stuff on this thread is this narrative that Ireland could have done nothing more, nothing went wrong, everything was fine, we gave it our very best shot, that's just sport, nothing to discuss, let's just move on, as if Saturday was absolutely nothing, sure we'll go again in the 6N, something something series win.

I think that is a complete misread of what has been said.

The crux of my points are that 'on the day', given all the circumstances, we gave all we could. That this 'best' level is not on a switch and that you cannot blame people for not hitting a switch that doesn't exist. There are multiple reasons why things happened as they did.

Nobody is shutting down or pretending that nothing went wrong Awec, things did, but that wasn't the whole thing. The game was there for the taking and again there are multiple reasons we could not take it. Lack of belief or effort are not the reasons and nor is other teams losing at this point in the past. That team went in fully believing they could do it.

Balance is required. And if you cannot hack the notion that sport is about what that game was about, then maybe sport is not for you.

The analysis and critques will come.

Neil3030 · 18-10-2023 1:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121254379#Comment_121254379

I not only hope you lose the final, I hope that the next time you use a urinal, you don't quite shake properly, and a little pee leaks out through the front of your trousers. And EVERYONE sees it.

TRC10 · 18-10-2023 1:35pm

You think if NZ go knocked out out in the quarters they'd have gotten a heroes welcome at the airport?

Absolutely f*cking not. No nation celebrates failure like Ireland.

Buer · 18-10-2023 1:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121254379#Comment_121254379

I do think people underestimated just how motivated NZ were for this game. They'll be happy the draw fell the way it did now because I'd imagine they'd struggle to beat a strong team next week. They absolutely emptied themselves and had a savage determination.

I think there's a real undercurrent of bitterness between the two sides at this point and it probably started in the Dublin game in 2016 when NZ came with a real nastiness after losing a few weeks beforehand. That was the start of it but I'd imagine, for NZ, it really came to life for them last summer and they wanted revenge for both the results and the mouthing on the field.

I'm sure you've seen the reports of the exchanges between Ioane and Sexton and also between Retallick and POM after the game on Saturday. NZ had been waiting 15 months for that opportunity to settle their scores.

I assume NZ will visit in 2024 and there's going to be some serious animosity again. I wouldn't be surprised if POM signed up for one more year just to get on the field with them again.

FrancieBrady · 18-10-2023 1:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121254465#Comment_121254465

Now attacking what was a small turnout at the airport, mostly showing gratitude and a bit of pride. Same reaction when the team showed their gratitude to supporters after SA win - they are celebrating a pool match win etc etc.

It's what we do, if you want to change it, blockade the airport. FFS. 🙄

Podge_irl · 18-10-2023 1:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121254508#Comment_121254508

God damn right they started it.

Unfortunately the only real way to get revenge is beating them. Which thankfully we have gotten far better at, the frankly the level of animosity is testament to that. Alas, still steps to go.

ionadnapokot · 18-10-2023 2:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121254358#Comment_121254358

I agree with pretty much everything you are saying awec regarding the Irish mistakes.

But why did it happen? We could write a book...but I offer up three simplistic reasons 1. NZ 2. Pressure 3. Fatigue

It is "just sport" - by way of NZ played better & smarter than Ireland
No doubt the occasion got to Ireland and they mismanaged the opening 25 mins.
The pack looked tired. esp. vdF. POM, Doris and Beirne. & Furlong just wasn't fit.

awec · 18-10-2023 2:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121254769#Comment_121254769

Furlong has been off it for a while now, it is a bit concerning.

I think he had a relatively young start to his career for a prop, it's potentially just miles on the clock that's affecting him at this stage.

Yeah_Right · 18-10-2023 2:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121254508#Comment_121254508

Yeah I've heard from a few different people about Sexton v Ioane and POM v Rettallick. Definitely a bit of animosity between the teams or at least some players. But that only comes about when you're equals. If that makes sense.

@awec Ireland definitely didn't play as well as they can but I think a lot of credit for that has to go to the ABs. I felt that Ireland had the ABs under pressure at times with their maul, their phase play, their defence and some line breaks. One issue Ireland has with linebreaks is the general lack of pace in the Irish team. And the ABs scramble really well. I think it the first try the Italians scored against us in the pool match, as Ange was going for the corner there were at least 5 ABs corner flagging.

I've been thinking about it and do wonder if the IRFU needs a new mental skills coach. Now hear me out. A lot of players do seem to make uncharacteristic errors in big games where they are favourites (even just slight favourites). I'm thinking England for the GS, Saturdays QF and Leinster in recent finals. Now obviously the opposition gets a say in those matches but I do wonder if its something to be looked at. I hope it is part of the review.

TRC10 · 18-10-2023 3:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121254545#Comment_121254545

Answer my question. If NZ got eliminated in the quarter finals, would they be welcomed home like heroes?

It's what we do

Yeah and that's the problem. We celebrate failure, which is why we always fail.

FrancieBrady · 18-10-2023 3:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121255177#Comment_121255177

😁 FFS. yeh we always fail.

We have won everything available to win in rugby (country and province) several times, except a WC.

Yeh we always fail.

Away outta that! 😁

awec · 18-10-2023 3:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121254944#Comment_121254944

The last paragraph is a fair question, and there may be something to it.

I also wonder if we need to add someone to the coaching ticket who has relatively recent experience of winning these games. I know Mike Catt literally has a winners medal, but that was 20 years ago.

You look at the rest of our coaching ticket, they're all former Irish internationals and one Rugby League player. None of them have any experience of getting it done. I do sometimes wonder if our approach is a bit too insular, using what we know didn't work for us before to guess what we need to do better, rather than getting a fresh, outside perspective on it from someone who has been there and done it.

swiwi_ · 18-10-2023 4:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121254508#Comment_121254508

The problem with being mouthy on the field is you like a right tool when u lose. Cane had plenty of reasons to give out verbally but instead just went out and played the house down. Some segments (a small number) of Irish fans and media have morphed into exactly the thing they profess to dislike about kiwis. Here’s a nice little clip of some guy called Derek McNamara. Comes across as a sanctimonious git. Respect opposition teams and do talking on the field.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HHs9lucLTWU

Buer · 18-10-2023 4:44pm

I think Gary Keegan has done a superb job in terms of mental skills with the squad. Look at what they've achieved in the past 3 years since he joined. He transformed Irish boxing into an Olympic force winning multiple medals. He linked up with the Dublin GAA team and was their mental skills coach from 2015-2019 (the 5 in a row).

I don't think a different coach in that area is going to transform them to ensure they have ice in their veins in such a game. Look at NZ. They sh*t the bed repeatedly in the RWC and were blessed to win it when they finally did in 2011 despite having a far superior team than France with a mighty 8-7 win at home. They didn't get it done for six RWC tournaments in a row, losing games they were strongly tipped to win every time. When they finally did, the referee gifted them it.

It's human nature for players to make errors in that environment. Unfortunately, Ireland so rarely get to play in games of that level to become comfortable whilst NZ face SA 2-3 times every season and get far more used to that sort of intensity. We did let the occasion get to us, undoubtedly....but I don't think a different mental skills coach will be a magical cure for that.

awec · 18-10-2023 5:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121255509#Comment_121255509

I don't mean a mental coach for the players to help them cope with the occasions.

I mean someone who can provide their experience on how best to approach these tournaments to maximise the chances of the team peaking at the right time. Tips on how to prepare for big pool games, knowing that there will be bigger games to come later. Things like knowing when to pile on the players and when to just leave them off to reduce mental fatigue.

Doesn't even have to be a coach, just get someone in on a consulting gig nearer the time, but I do think someone who has been there and done it recently would provide valuable info to our setup, particularly when you consider that experience in winning these games within our wider panel is very, very thin on the ground.

AbusesToilets · 18-10-2023 5:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121254944#Comment_121254944

One area I'm excited for in this post WC transition is the chance to get some pace into the team. I was very disappointed that Baloucoune wasn't given more opportunities in the system, I think having Stockdale and even Earls in the squad over him was a waste ultimately. Speed at 10 is an area we've been lacking for a long time, there's few 10s in Ireland who could make a break like Mo'unga did. Having that ability would massively enhance our attacking structure and pose more of a challenge to defenses.

Podge_irl · 18-10-2023 5:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121255401#Comment_121255401

Some segments (a small number) of Irish fans and media have morphed into exactly the thing they profess to dislike about kiwis.

To be fair, if the team morph into being like the All Blacks I'll get over it. They have made strides in that direction already.

AbusesToilets · 18-10-2023 5:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121254358#Comment_121254358

My criticism of your viewpoint is that you are taking viewing the failure to score as indicative of the team not performing. We made a number of mistakes that cost us points, but we created multiple opportunities, which to me shows that the team did perform to the standards they've shown themselves capable of.

The stats posted above show that Ireland largely outplayed NZ, and broke their defense systems more effectively than they did ours. Ultimately two missed tackles, one my Ringrose on Fainga'anuku, and Belaham or Sheehan on Mo'unga being the only times I'd point to as NZ breaching ours. In contrast, we went the length of the field multiple times, and put ourselves in positions to score. Bad decision making cost us, but that's different for me from the team failing to perform. The way we struggled against England in the 6Ns would be an example of that imo.

Yeah_Right · 18-10-2023 5:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121255509#Comment_121255509

You're being a bit revisionist there. It was 5 tournaments they failed at not 6. And there is no way you can say they were massive favourites in 1995, 99 or 2003 when you look at their results the previous year or even the same year. They shat the bed in the games against France in 99 (but Aus were favourites) and 2007. Maybe the semi in 2003 (Eddie Jones masterclass) but England were favourites.

Anyway, those failures were the reason why they got Gilbert Enoka involved. It took time but it did make a difference in the end.

I don't anything about Keegan or how long he has been involved but I would hope that what he is doing is part of the review and that he is taking a lot of learnings from this match if he is going to stay involved. I assume, based on what you have said about him, that he will. And he will improve.

Awec's suggestion might have some merit. Hiring a recent winner as a consultant of some sort. Obvious choice would be Felix Jones.

aloooof · 18-10-2023 5:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121255716#Comment_121255716

Obvious choice would be Felix Jones.

I think I read recently he was joining the England coaching ticket for next year. Potentially building a very nice CV for himself.

phog · 18-10-2023 5:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121255763#Comment_121255763

Yes & yes

18-10-2023 6:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121255401#Comment_121255401

One look at the sport nerd\anoraks from Off The Ball and you'd know they never participated in any sport in their lives.

Fair play to Sam Cane. I'm not a fan of sledging opponents, it puts a lot of fire in their bellies and is serious motivation. No rugby player is in a position to put down another, it comes back to bite them in the arse.

This 'you're a sh*t Richie McCaw' was glorified in certain sections here and put up as the ultimate put down. The Anthony Foleys, Josh Van der Fliers and countless others don't have to resort to that rubbish.

ersatz · 18-10-2023 7:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121256009#Comment_121256009

I really don't understand the Cane hate. He was off his game for a while coming back from injury but he's consistently been one of the best performers for NZ in this competition and he put Ireland's back row down on Saturday. More than that he's been consistently selected and given the arm band by NZ even when there were phenomenal alternatives available, people are crazy to think the ABs are selecting him on reputation or sentiment.

Madeoface · 18-10-2023 7:32pm

Just about over my depression of losing to the most ungracious rugby nation on the globe. Good thread.

Fair play Sam Kane and Ardie Savea. Monsters.

Jonny should have come off with Furlong.

Never ever thought I'd cheer SA but go the Boks.... Smash Ioane please...

Long term having the staffers in the urc can only help us and weaken NZ.

ScissorPaperRock · 18-10-2023 8:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121256232#Comment_121256232

Have to say the NZ players were gracious in victory overall, but I would enjoy seeing the smugness wiped off Ioane's face. I was in the crowd right where he directed his taunt at the end of the game, and all it elicited was a "**** you".

As I said, nothing against NZ in general - love their rugby, most of the players seem like decent people (seeing Bundee being consoled by Jordie Barrett was a nice image), but that guy shows that the 'no **** heads' policy isn't really enforced anymore.

"I started a joke, that started the whole world ......" | Ireland v New Zealand.

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