Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

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@circadian but apparently to some it's not true because there isn't enough blood in the area. I remember the Coshquin bomb, was a couple of miles away in Slievemore at my cousins.

The devastation a blast like that causes, it's not just shrapnel that kills but the sheer concussive force of an explosion.

But when 500 people get blown up in a very small Area the devastation is huge there would be Bodies,arms,legs and heads all over the place the amount of blood would be unbelievable,we seen the amount of blood from a few victims of last weeks terrorist attack,now multiply that blood from hundreds of dead not including the claims of hundreds injured,

I still think people still believe everything that comes out of Hamas mouths including the doctors who paraded dead bodies in a Press conference last night as part of the propaganda

Plenty of bodies here.

You're getting into crisis actor territory yet claim you're the only one on here with a "calm head". Unreal.

I agree. People like to act like the Gaza blockade came solely from a cruel place and will to destroy Gaza but it was a pure reaction to Hamas coming to power. Israel had no appetite at the time to militarily remove Hamas and all the bloodshed that would entail, so a blockade it was. And, the blockade was enforced equally by Eygpt, who felt the exact same.

It wasn't credible to suggest that Gaza should have just been left alone with open borders under the control of Hamas, a Jihadi, ISIS-style organisation. An organisation that was elected by the people of Palestine, it must be said. Yes, I understand the arguments in that the people were sick of the status quo and wanted change amid desperation, I think everyone understands that.

But electing a Jihadi, fundementalist organisation to lead your side is going to yield a certain result, inevitably, that won't be acceptable to any surrounding nation. The Hamas Charter at the time was to wipe Israel off the map and purge every jew from historical Palestine.

It would be like the people of Iraq democratically electing ISIS as their Government. There's a reason the West Bank is relatively stable compared to Gaza, because the PA controls that to a certain degree and is a far more moderate organisation.

It's just not realistic that Gaza wasn't going to be blockaded. It was either a total blockade or a bloody war. Israel chose the blockade. Was that right? I don't think there's any clear answer but it's not an illogical response.

In the longer term, it's led to more misery and suffering but can hardly blame Israel for not wanting to immediately launch a military conquest of Gaza after literally just withdrawing from the place.

That civilians are dying on any side is not black and white. It's just black, it's wrong, it's not acceptable. Ditto, Israel blockading the essentials of life isn't acceptable. But the wider context is not black and white. War is ugly, it's unfair, it's disgusting, no matter what side you're on.

I would hope that arising from the ashes of this latest escalation will be a sincere, renewed effort to address the future of Palestine, now that the spotlight of the world is upon it. Unfortunately that isn't going to happen if Hamas retain a grip on Gaza.

They made a roll of the dice that by butchering Israeli civilians and drawing a hellfire response that it would galvanise a major response from outside its own borders. Unfortunately I think neighbouring Arab countries want no part of it at a state level. They'll play the part, denouncing, demanding, but ultimately they don't want to take in Palestinians.

So where does anyone go from here. It's a rubix cube with 500 faces. I hope Israel has the sense to come to the table after reaching whatever goals they have set in response to what happened a fortnight ago. It's not about yesterday or today, it's about the future, generations on both sides.

The people of Israel, in the main, want to live a peaceful life. The people of Palestine are no different, and they deserve not just a peaceful life but a peaceful life within a secure state. Both deserve that, in equal measure. Talk of Israel's founding 70 years ago are totally redundant. The country is here. It's not going anywhere. Both sides have to come to the table and get real about the future, be it tomorrow or 10 years from now.

Seeing the news around this farce along with some of the reaction online makes you wonder are we in some kind of twilight zone.

One question I had this morning was that if there was such a perilous situation in Israel, there is no way Joe Biden would go to Tel Aviv. Not a chance.

Then sure enough, on Biden's departure, RTE news this evening: "Rocket fire into Israel resumed soon after Biden's departure"

Do people actually believe that terrorists are firing off a barrage of rockets into Israel?? Complete and utter nonsense. They then have the nerve to say that the "Iron Dome" is blocking them from doing any damage. How people are swallowing this is the real mystery.

It's not redundant, it's only 70 years. It's founding was a mistake to begin with, has caused nothing but misery ever since and those still opposed to it's founding have every right to continue to take that stance. It's not good enough to start saying, ah shur it is what it is now, we made up a story that we own this and we're keeping it. Israel have made their bed and they'll have to lie in it and put up with plenty hostility for who knows how long more until most likely they weaken their enemies to a point where they no longer pose much of a threat. Until that happens the US will continue to back them and pretend they do so just because it's the right thing to and nothing whatsoever got to do with having a state in that region that they can use for their own benefit.

If the US washed their hands of them completely tomorrow morning, things would be very different.

Ive listened to some interviews on Irish radio stations this week with Palestinians on and they are very similar to this interview, trying to dictate the tone and shouting down any suggestions hamas is a Terrorist organisation,but look what Israel did and what Israel is doing,we don't want or need to assign blame , were only here to discuss the attack on Gaza by Israel, but why is Israel attacking Gaza,

It doesn't come across well when apparently there is only one side that can be the victim a here

When observing this picture, it becomes immediately apparent that the claim of 500 people getting killed in this area is highly improbable. The space depicted in the image clearly indicates that it is primarily a parking lot for cars, making it inconceivable for such a large number of casualties to occur here. When news of this incident broke, it was initially believed by many, including myself, that a bomb had struck a hospital building.In the provided picture, I did not observe any tents or visible areas that could be identified as facilities for a hospital or places where people would be cared for. Israel's bombing of Gaza has resulted in numerous collapsed buildings and tragic loss of life, it is important to approach each incident with an objective lens. An air-burst JDAM strike is highly unlikely.

Will Hamas allow an independent forensic team into Gaza ... ?

And I mean one with the required technical competence as well as independence.

Explain what is really happening then Markus, whose plan is this and what are their motives?

It's not often I've heard people call Husam Zomlot embarrassing. Maybe do a bit of research on the man and get a better idea of how intelligent he really is, and also how much he has dedicated himself to bringing peace to the region. His parents were forced out of their homes in 1948 and he was born in the refugee camp in Rafah. He's spent his life educating himself and using his education to try and help his people.

Absolutely not, I remember when Russia shutdown flight MH 17 over Ukraine,they called for an independent UN investigation,when the UN investigation began Russia blocked and even went as far to get the UN to remove shot down and shooting down of any aircraft instead the UN had to say, air accident before withdrawing from the investigation,and released there own investigation that blamed Ukraine and the CIA,

This would be the same hamas would not allow foreign expert's into Gaza and if they did they would likely be detained as foreign spies

Presumably, when it is proven by analysis of data from satellites and other communications that Israel didn't cause the explosion in the hospital car-park and US diplomats in both Jordan and Saudi Arabia relay this fact to the governments of those countries, King Abdullah of Jordan and Crown Prince MBS would tell their subjects the truth, wouldn't they?

That is correct. But the point remains that Hamas, a Jihadi organisation, were democratically elected, and the blockade from the Israeli and Eyptian side was based 100% on that fact, not any inherent perverse will to hem in, destroy, annihilate the Gazian population, as is often alleged.

It's also true to say that Hamas has not held elections since, but opinion polls show generally strong support for Hamas to the current day. How reliable those polls are, I won't comment on because frankly I don't know, but we can only go on what we have.

Yes, it's entirely redunant. Unless you're suggesting that Israel, at this point, with it's incredible economy, stable society, and regional powerhouse status should just up sticks and relocate. To where, I'll let you speculate, but the very idea is nonsensical. Therefore, talks about how Israel was founded, arguments that it should never have existed, are fruitless at this stage.

Also to address your claim that the US washing their hands of them would result in a "very different" scenario. Can you lay this out in detail? Because Israel reaps benefits from US backing, but it's by no means their means of survival.

Israel survived several invasions by arab coalitions with superior armies several times before the US decided to back them hard. Israel, today, is a $500bn economy, with a $30n annual spend on the army, with advanced domestic military industries. It gets a few billion a year in aid from the US on top of the $500bn economy.

If the US completely abandoned Israel now - which is an outlandish scenario for many reasons - why would they cease existing? Who would threaten them?

This line is often trotted out but it's extreme ignorance. Israel is not only the dominant military power in the region, but its immediate neighbours also have zero interest in war.

Eygpt? Zero interest. Jordan and Lebanon? Zero interest. The latter, Hezbollah is a factor, but that's an admittedly strong paramilitary organisation, but has zero chance against Israel in actual conventional war.

Syria? Zero interest. Iran is interested in regional instability but it does not share a border with Israel. Even if it did the last thing they'd want is a direct war with Israel because Israeli air power and strike capability would gut them.

If the US dropped Israel tomorrow, Eygpt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria could all invade again and they would still lose badly. And that's assuming such a coaltion would even be possible, but in the real world it's absolutely not, because none of those countries have the faintest interest in challenging Israel.

So please tell us what this grave, exisential threat is to Israel that only the US is preventing. Israel might face more hardship, conflict in the region might go up due to increased proxy activity emboldened by US withdrawal, but Israel would still not be under threat as a nation state.

We've heard this line countless times before on this thread but inevitably when challenged the argument devolves into whataboutery and accusations to mask the sheer inability to address the actual questions and back up the claims made.

Maybe have a look at the entire interview and come back to me?

He is well educated and intelligent and he comes up with this sort of wriggling and whataboutery? Calling it a game, FFS. But maybe his family's well being depends on doing exactly what his Hamas masters tell him to do. Either way, there isn't much hope for the future unless Hamas is wiped out and Palestinians are held to a pact of peace in lieu for their own sovereign state.