Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

OK, but you're shifting the goalposts. First it was Israel would be nothing without the US, now it's Israel wouldn't be the same without the US, and your examples are of political backing, not military.

All fair points, and valid, but ultiminately do not threaten the state of Israel.

It's also getting into massive whataboutery territory. What if the US stopped selling to Israel? What if the EU stopped selling to Israel? What if even Russia and China wouldn't sell to Israel?

It also makes the massive assumption that even if all that were to miraculously pass, that Israel would be alone. But it wouldn't. There are massive geopolitical divides within Arab states. So the debate is entirely pointless.

You might as well debate what if China nuked Iran, if Iran stopped supplying Syria or Hezbollah, or what if the US withdraw from Saudi Arabia, which has a massive army completely reliant on the US.

It's not a realistic scenario, and the real world geopolitics aren't going to shift to remotely that degree, so not much point talking about it or making claims on it. Better to debate the real world reality of the situation.

You must be imagining things. Because, I never said Israel would be nothing without the US. Here's what I said: "If the US washed their hands of them completely tomorrow morning, things would be very different." And they would be. And in my response to you I outlined why I thought they would be.

There is no going back and Israelis won't be leaving now. Best chance of peace is if Israel finish off what they started and take it all. My point is, they are the original aggressor. They have taken something that was not theirs yet many people back them and say they are right to defend what they have as it's all a bit too late now and it's time to move on. Once they eventually take what's left, will we still be saying shur what could they do, they had to defend themselves.

"Washing their hands of Israel" would leave the US open to being accused of willing to let a second holocaust happen.

Well at least we all know and accept now that it was Palestinian's that bombed the hospital that caused 500 death's.

I don't think there are a lot of people here who wants Israel gone. They are there and not going anywhere - a lot of countries exist in a place they conquered some time ago and that is just how things are.

Israel's problem is that government support, or tolerate (if not encouraging) creation of illegal settlements where Palestinian landowners are driven away with a force. That is the primary source of tensions as displaced people move to places like Gaza strip or West Bank and what else is there left for them than to vent their anger and join extremist groups. There are not extreme tensions in Israel mainland where orthodox Jews live next to Arab neighbors and we seen incidents where orthodox Jews fought with Israeli police which was trying to remove Palestinian flag.

Every dead extremist (or civilian) encourage another two or more to "join the cause". These things cant be stomped out with violence considering there is also religion in the play. Military solutions are like pouring oil to the fire.

Yes. I don't think religion is the issue, even if I share your contempt for Abraham, The World's Worst Dad and Most Pathetic Role Model in Human History. But as you acknowledge it all falls apart when you consider the tens of millions slaughtered by 'godless' communists. For me, the problem, as always, is that we don't yet have a way of tackling the fact that the very worst people desire positions of power.. and they will use whatever cultural mores are available to them to achieve it.

Not much empathy in attacking posters on the thread while not contributing to it.

Any evidence of that?

Like last weeks massive terrorist attack people will always stand and deny what happened no matter what the facts are

LINK

I find the BBC Verify pieces good. They put a lot of effort into trying to get all the information and presenting what they think really happened in certain situations.

Here is their piece about the hospital explosion.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67144061

Not a massive difference to the borders we have today. That feels coincidental.

Realistically you can offer somebody below market rate for their house but they're entitled to reject it.

Negotiation should mean both parties get a good deal.

I think the starting point has to be "You dont attack us, and we wont attack you back". How about just hold it there for a while.

Then you can start trying to integrate properly. But if someone crosses a border, murders hundreds of women and children, drags them back over the border as hostages or parades their bodies around the street. Well thats the starting point for something completely different.

Time to get back to the you dont kill us and we wont kill you status again. Easier said than done though. Ive seem family feuds all started and gone on for decades where just 2 people had a disagreement at the start.