Rugby world cup post mortem

wittycynic · 19-10-2023 12:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121256332#Comment_121256332

This has arguably been true for the past 20 years. NZ or SA often came through tight contests to win those world cups. Matches could have gone the other way for the winner but crucially, like this year, they didn't. There might be teams close to them in each world cup, but for 20 years SA or NZ have always wound up on top. That's not coincidence and there's not much to suggest that's going to change unless something changes in World Rugby's approach.

There were four different winners of the first five world cups. When you take into account the inevitable outcome this one, there will only be two different winners of the last five. The competitiveness of the World Cup has deteriorated in a startling way.

AbusesToilets · 19-10-2023 12:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121257195#Comment_121257195

I imagine money would cure any aches, as in the end, that's all that matters to the various entities. They managed to solve such issues when Italy were introduced, they could do so again.

I say put back in their box, because I feel they have an outsize and often negative impact on the health of the game. Their schedule runs too long, which impacts player welfare. They strong arm players from Tier 2 nations to give up playing internationally. Their league has been the driver for the inflation of player wages and overall costs in the club game, which has played a large part in the issues facing various countries fighting to sustain themselves. Not their fault necessarily, they have a great product, but it's also not everyone else's obligation to bend themselves to suit their wants.

Lost Ormond · 19-10-2023 1:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121257238#Comment_121257238

It was very different in every way with Italy. Going from 5 to 6 teams with every team already having a rest week and no change to length of competition. less agro with the pro clubs. Their schedule runs too long? It works for them and theyve always done that. The french have driven wages but by and large they have managed it far better than the english.. yes we;ve seen some french clubs go down the divisions but have we seen many explode in same manner as the english clubs that went under recently?

We're not bending over to suit them. I dont think being overly critical of the one pro league that has done the most by a distance for assisting players turn pro from the tier 2 countries is riqht either

TRC10 · 19-10-2023 3:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121255178#Comment_121255178

New Zealand disrespected The Fields of Athenry

D.L.R. · 19-10-2023 4:20am

The Irish as a nation seem satisfied as the gallant loser. Proud even. That's why they never win these knockout games. No Kiwi commentator calls pride when they lose. No South Africa commentator calls pride. France aren't calling pride even though they played great. Why? Because they LOST.

Ireland win the world cup? Don't make me snort my tea out my nose. Win ONE knockout game first. Beat the mighty Boks or France in a final? Get a grip. Its cringe AF hearing all this "ah shure, yer champions in our book". This is a massive disappointment and its ok to say so. The #1 team in the world didn't show up. NZ are good but not THAT good. Ireland didn't lose to NZ, they lost to the Quarter Final. They lost their nerve big time. Giving the Blacks a 13 point lead in a knockout match? What a complete disaster! If that's not bottling it I don't know what is.

As a casual observer I didn't see this supposed world number 1 team, I saw a very good Ireland team who seemed a little nervy and lacked any fear inducing, killer edge we saw from NZ, SA and France in the QFs. Every time France or SA were on the ball in that first half you felt afraid for the defenders. Ireland looked physically strong pushing forward and quick hands but that's about it. No real imagination. More like an attitude of "lets not fk this up" and playing within themselves, and then making dumb choices like not taking 3 points at critical junctures, making weak chip & charges etc. You could FEEL the nerves off the Irish. They let the Kiwis take an early lead because of it.

Hearing all this pathetic loser pride, its embarrassing. Ireland were good enough to win the WC, but sadly they couldn't transcend that psychological barrier and lets be honest, its no real surprise. All the talk of Ireland winning the world cup was honestly hilarious. Never won a knockout game but they're gna win 3 in a row. Surrre.

Get some self respect and stop celebrating defeat.

AbusesToilets · 19-10-2023 4:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121257375#Comment_121257375

Cool story bro, thanks for sharing

OldRio · 19-10-2023 8:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121257375#Comment_121257375

'celebrating defeat'? I take it you've not read any of the thousands of posts on this message board since the defeat? Of course you haven't.

thomas 123 · 19-10-2023 9:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121256930#Comment_121256930

Let’s be clear, I want more international teams competing - not being used as run outs before bigger games.

The teams who get relegated should be hurt, as the teams who get promoted should be rewarded. It’s competition.

Imagine the uptick in interest in Georgia for rugby if Georgia got promoted up to the the six nations and say wales went down with all their issues of late.

Wales would need to sort their house out or face becoming awful for good, Georgia now has a chance to knock Italy down and keep themselves in the 6 nations.

Instead of - Ireland or France will Probably dominate for the next 3-4 years and the other four teams won’t really care - maybe England will keep the good run of form and challange or maybe we will regress massively - that’s about the size of it - same year in year out. Then cap it off with all of those teams getting dumped out in the World Cup every 4 years - do you not find it a little bit repetitive?

Though maybe a European cup of sorts would be a better way to go every few years. Or do it leauge cup style where the weaker teams play first then the big teams a seeeded in at later stages.

Podge_irl · 19-10-2023 9:22am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121257752#Comment_121257752

the other four teams won’t really care

This has basically never happened in the history of the 6N

Lost Ormond · 19-10-2023 1:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121257752#Comment_121257752

You havent explained how to address the challenges of making relegation financially viable though.

The teams relegated will be hurt no doubt but you havent addressed how to make relegation/promotion viable. Wales or Ireland or any of the 6 nations would be f****d without a year of 6 nations income as games against Romania/Spain will never get near what 6 nations games bring in.

It has never happened in the history of the tournament what you say about other teams not caring in times of 1 teams dominance at the top.

Clo-Clo · 19-10-2023 2:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121257752#Comment_121257752

if an Ireland/Scotland or Wales lost the 6 nations money they would be bankrupt the same year and you would end up with one less country playing rugby. That is not sustainable.

Wales have sorted out their house as much as possible, hence why all the upheaval last year. Before this it was a mess as well but it was papered over. They are still noway near perfect but probably on a better footing than ever but as above without 6 nations money they would be dead in water.

Winning 6 nations and tours etc is not repetitive. If you think rugby is bad watch soccer with the same 2-3 multi billionaire clubs winning the majority of trophies. The winning of the 6 nations in the last 4 years had England, Wales, France and Ireland.

The 6 nations is an incredible competition which every team in the World wants to be in, including the SH teams. They have little to no interest in the Rugby Championship, look at how everyone said NZ are **** before the World Cup yet they have won every Rugby Championship since the last World Cup. Kind of says it all.

In terms of the rest of EUrope, they need investment at under age and a pro team playing in the URC or some similar competition. Investing at pro international level doesn't work. If Georgia/Portugal/Spain etc had a pro team in URC that would bring the game forward in those countries and improve the international teams.

To me Ireland is in a better position than we have ever been in terms of rugby, we have four strong provinces who will probably qualify each years for Champions Cup. We have a senior Ireland team who have been the most consistent team in 6 nations for years in terms of staying in the top 3. We have a good U20 program which has won 6 nations and is very competitive. Both teams playing attractive rugby.

Number of players are growing, slowly but growing. The 7s program for both men and women are in the Olympics and potentially will grow numbers in that area. The women 15s is the one blot on the copy book and is the real area which needs focus.

The changes need to continue at the levels below the professional game so in 20 years time Ireland is still a force, qtr final knock outs or not

Lost Ormond · 19-10-2023 2:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121258926#Comment_121258926

it cant simply be enter teams into the URC though. URC cant be where any new pro team in europe enters.

The Georqia/Romanias have to be added to u20 6 nations. all the 6 nations have to go back and enter the rugby europe u18 championship again which they all pulled out of after the 2015 tournament which happened to see Ireland, Italy and some of the other 6 nations lose to Georgia and Romania.

The real money is at international level. so you need to invest there to get some of that income....

captbarnacles · 19-10-2023 3:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121257375#Comment_121257375

You really believe that we lost because that team are content being gallant losers? that this is why Sexton missed that penalty, Murray grabbing Barrett, Doris knocking on etc are because they are content losing?? It's ridiculous. What are you talking about.

Ardillaun · 19-10-2023 3:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121239429#Comment_121239429

Quality-wise, the QFs involving us and France were semi-finals. I’d like to see the Argies and England win but suspect they’ll lose against the same opposition with bigger margins than we and the French managed.

sxt · 19-10-2023 5:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121257375#Comment_121257375

I think there is alot to be said about the "celebrating losing psyche in irish sport"

It's endemic in every irish sport. Rugby, Soccer ,Athletics etc

It basically a powerful hypnotic auto suggesting trance suggesting to you that " You aren't good enough to win so when ever you lose , we will throw a party for you

It has to effect players in some sub concious way when they grow up hearing about 1 million irish people turn up to the streets when ireland were knocked out in QF quarter finals in soccer 30 years ago

The ladies soccer team of this year got a hero's welcome back for finishing last in their group!

The pre kick off body language difference between Sam Kane and a very nervous looking Johnny sexton was very telling

Podge_irl · 19-10-2023 5:45pm

Lads, 50 people turned up at the airport. Think you're probably overanalysing that.

RichieRich_89 · 19-10-2023 8:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121259036#Comment_121259036

What about a Pan-World Cup every four years between World Cups for the best 12 or 16 teams not in the 6N or RC? If it was 12 teams it could use the same format as the U20s World Championships.

Something like

Pool A: Fiji, Tonga, Uruguay, Chile

Pool B: Japan, Samoa, USA, Namibia

Pool C: Portugal, Georgia, Spain, Romania

Top 4 teams make semi finals; next 4 make 5th-6th place play-offs, and so on.

Would it be a big enough event for there to be money in it? Would it be a good way of testing the waters as regards how good a country might be at hosting the main event?

D.L.R. · 19-10-2023 8:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121259244#Comment_121259244

Gallant defeat is embedded in Irish culture. Clearly that affected their performance in the dreaded QF. Did they rise to the occasion? That's a hard no.

The media coverage after was embarrassing. But not surprising.

D.L.R. · 19-10-2023 8:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121257380#Comment_121257380

With that dismal Irish defensiveness, you could play for Ireland in the next QF

Lost Ormond · 19-10-2023 9:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121260397#Comment_121260397

These countries play each other enough. This tournament won't help close gap between these sides and the rugby championship sides and 6 nations. More games against the rugby hampionship sides and 6 nations will help them.

Murph85 · 19-10-2023 10:08pm

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby-world-cup/2023/1014/1410948-i-didnt-think-wed-be-packing-up-admits-sheehan/?fbclid=IwAR2O5nQY1UJ6_C-ffp-V78n972X-eSak7PvOifaV0s6DdjZztK72G7JwxEk

I wonder were the players too complacent? Nz didn't need an ounce of extra motivation to beat the " world number 1"...

FrancieBrady · 20-10-2023 11:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121260878#Comment_121260878

Someone else will claim we collapsed due to nerves which you wouldn't have if you were complacent.

I would ask, why we cannot just accept that in a close fought game that was effectively the same as a SF or Final we lost by a single score.

Paul Smeenus · 20-10-2023 1:34pm

Because then no-one gets to go, "Look at me! Look how high my standards are! I only love winners! I'm amazing and don't accept excuses."

There's a lot of folk on here that basically think they're Nathan Jessop in A Few Good Men.

Murph85 · 20-10-2023 2:29pm

nz felt they had a point to prove and were hungrier for it...

I don't think they'd ever admit it, not soon any way. But you'd wonder if the irish players felt there would be enough of a gap, that Ireland could show up at 85% and still beat them...

aloooof · 20-10-2023 2:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121262758#Comment_121262758

I’ve also heard it described as“Roy Keane cosplay”. Which is particularly funny.

Yeah_Right · 20-10-2023 2:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245865#Comment_121245865

You've been talking some revisionist BS on this topic. The policy of not selecting players playing outside of Ireland, basically came in because Sexton signed to play in France after the IRFU lowballed him. I believe in the past Irland had selected the likes of Geordie Murphy, Bowe, Cullen, Easterby and others who were all playing in the UK. Sexton got a clause put in his contract saying he would be released for all Irish camps. Zebo signed to play in France after the policy was announced. And he didn't get a clause put in his contract releasing him. That is on Zebo.

Yeah_Right · 20-10-2023 3:39pm

Have to say as a kiwi, there is a fair bit of schadenfeude here watching all you paddies tear each other apart over this loss. Living in Ireland I'v copped a bit of stick over the last few years with Ireland beating the ABs fairly regularly so right now I'm feeling pretty smug.

But I also fell sorry for this Irish team as I have watched and supported them over the years and they are a good side. They should be in a semi final as they are one of the 4 best teams in the world. But in sport, you don't always get what you deserve. Same as life. I see a few fans showed up at the airport to welcome the team home. Good on them. Same would happen in NZ where win or lose there would be fans welcoming the ABs home. Obviously a lot more would show up for a winning return.

I've seen people talk about Farrell getting fired, some even saying that the ABs manager would be gone if they had lost. Well Ian Foster has 2 games left as the ABs coach whether he wins the RWC or not. He lost his job months ago. Scott Robertson takes over next year. And the only ABs coach to ever lose a QF, kept his job and won the next RWC.

Whats next for the Irish team? Well like all the other teams its about rebuilding and restarting as they look to RWC 2027 while also winning the games in front of them. Players brought in and others dropped or phased out. Coaching panels will be shuffled, there'll be wins and there'll be losses. Some players will lose form drastically and other players will have meteoric rises.

The main thing I want to see over the next 4 years is Italy to be competitive in the 6 Nations (ie. winning games), more test matches for the PI Nations, more support matches against tier 1 nations for Georgie, Portugal, Uruguay and Chile, Australia to sort their **** out and Ireland to continue to be a top team. And the ABs to win every single damn game they play!!

BTW, Whitelock clearly released and it was a legitimate penalty to finish the game on Saturday.

noc1980 · 20-10-2023 4:30pm

At the end of the day it mattered more to NZ. If they returned home after losing a QF they'd have gone into hiding. They played with a useful fear, that if they didn't show up they could get embarrassed and their reputations would be in tatters. The NZ media are brutal and ruthless, Ireland's media are cheerleaders and don't ever go beyond slightly critical. Irish players only have to deal with regret in defeat. Kiwis have to contend with shame and humiliation. That will motivate you to be quicker to rucks and tackling like it's life and death.

FrancieBrady · 20-10-2023 4:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121263625#Comment_121263625

This is utter bunk tbh.

All of the players on that field have previously displayed a will to win. All of them.

Against greater odds they have pulled off wins.

It had nothing to do with what they faced if they lost, their own internal critic as pro sportsmen would be worse than anything a fan or journalist could say.

It's as simple as: somebody had to win and on this occasion, for a variety of reasons, (not least Whitelock not releasing 😁) it was NZ.

Tombo2001 · 20-10-2023 5:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121257375#Comment_121257375

This sort of post annoys me no end, sneering after the event. Nobody is proud of losing. People are proud of a team that is number one in the world - not 'supposed' number one in the world, but actual number one in the world, that is Grand Slam Champion, that won what 15 consecutive games, that won an away tour to New Zealand. They were proud of the team before the Quarter Final, and yes make no apologies for still being proud of it afterwards.

Rugby world cup post mortem

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