Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

Not sure who you are replying to there. We have been discussing the Tuam-Claremorris section not further on to Sligo. I'm pretty sure Varadkar was only speaking about this section in his reply to Ciaran Cannon as well.

Of course reinstating rail services are costly, especially relative to greenways. It's major public infrastructure after all but that isnt a reason not to do it or invest in the future of the country.

The main thing is that there is a 25-30m wide wayleave between the towns largely intact and that gives you the options. I think that's a fantastic thing and we are fortunate that the route has been preserved. If it was only wide enough to accommodate either the greenway or rail track then I'm sure conflict and suspicion between various groups would soon get very nasty. But thankfully that's not the case so lets get on with doing something.

But again as I keep saying it comes back to what the priorities are. Varadkar hinted that the greenway might be sensible until the rail comes but is that what Eamon Ryan will say? He has indicated a few months ago that he isn't against the idea of the 2 side by side but whether he will let the greenway in first on its own remains to be seen. Until any cabinet friction is ironed out nothing will happen unfortunately.

https://connachttribune.ie/transport-minister-not-ruling-out-two-options-working-side-by-side-at-a-cost/

North of Claremorris has been closed since 1975 so most of the currently unopened WRC has indeed been closed since the mid 70s. It was a low quality build with an extensive number of level crossings. Even 20 years ago, reports were estimating costs for Claremorris to Collooney as double Ennis to Athenry €/km.

Greenways aren't just for tourists, they are a great asset for people living locally. They provide a safe place for all people to get outside and exercise. A greenway could be provided comparitively much quicker and cheaper, it would be of more benefit than waiting another couple of decades for the government to put up several hundred million € to reinstate the rail line.

Given your sneering at "poverty wage jobs" in hospitality, I'm not sure what the decent wage jobs are which the WRC would allow people to access within a reasonable commuting time. Into Galway would be a long journey time from anywhere north of Tuam and the single track line from Athenry doesn't have capacity for direct services anyway.

What I said was "Most of the closed WRC has been unused since the mid 70s". This factually correct. The majority of the WRC north of Athenry (i.e. the closed part I referred to) has been officially closed since the mid 70s. I never mentioned north of Claremorris and I don't have to move any goalposts. Hopefully you are reasonable enough to admit that you are wrong on this.

Greenways aren't just about sceenery. This may come as a shock to you but people walk and cycle outdoors all year round in this country, our winters are mild compared to many other countries. Any field sports clubs with a walkingtrack generally have good numbers of people walking despite it being laps of a pitch and often no sceenery. There is big demand for such facilities and greenways provide huge benefits relative to their small initial and maintenance costs. People join gyms because to use the equipment/weights and/or classes, not exercising out of the cold probably doesn't even register as a reason why most people join gyms.

Your issue with hospitality jobs is extremely odd. Plenty of people earn good money in hospitality, many also earn enough to have a decent life. It may not be for you but it suits plenty of others. It absolutely is sneering to say that a hospitality workers need new jobs to improve their lives, you are clearly looking down on them.

trains traversed athenry to claremorris up until the late 90s, these would have been specials and freight so still ultimately trains.

I know that rail supporters love to discredit the EY report but it's not the only report to have reached such conclusions. Even the AIRR doesn't recommend reopening north of Claremorris, despite advocating for Portadown - Mullingar! It has €400 - 600m just for Athenry - Claremorris.

We can even go back as far as the 2005 McCann Report if you want. It estimated a cost of €75m to reopen Athenry - Ennis. The actual cost a few years later was €106m, a 40% increase. If we take McCann's cost for Claremorris - Collooney (€197m) and increase it by 40% we are at €275m, then allow for cost increases between 2009 and whenever construction might start. Once completed, we can also use Limerick - Foynes as a real world, current benchmark.

The faffing about the EY report is a convenient distraction for some but irrelevant overall. We know it'll cost an obscene amount, the existing network at either end is insufficient with not enough being done to address that, and that there is not a good enough payback.Whatever about Athenry - Claremorris, there simply isn't a case to be made for reopening Claremorris - Collooney for a long time. We have got a least half a century of more necessary rail investment projects to be getting on with. In the meantime, greenway makes perfect sense. Again, we have real world examples of the benefits of greenways (and they go beyond just tourists and get used all year round).

Rather than constantly trying to discredit or simply ignore reports which don't suit their narrative, rail supporters have to come up with a credible case for WRC. Why should taxpayers money be invested in WRC, ahead of other projects with a stronger business case (we have lots of them)? WRC is at least a decade away from reopening even if it was approved tomorrow, why should a low cost greenway be ignored in the meantime?

The closed WRC is 126km long. The section north of Claremorris is 74km long and has been closed since the mid 70s. The facts reflect exactly what I said,.

Again was that "most of the closed WRC has been unused since the mid 70s", lest you try to suggest that I said something else or claim I am trying to move the goalpost. You saying "trains traversed athenry to claremorris up until the late 90s" doesn't disprove what I said and is you trying to move the goalposts.

I'm not sure if its your comprehension of the English language or basic maths that is your issue here. Either way, you make yourself look for stupid. Hopefully you'll admit you were wrong or at least just quietly drop it and move on like your "poverty wage jobs" comment.

While it is true to say ‘It will never cost less to build the WRC than it would today’, the same applies to practically every other potential project. We obviously can't build everything now, or even over the next 10 years, there are too many constraints (funding, labour, planning system, regional development, etc.).

We need to prioritise. For some reason, WRC gets pushed as a priority, even against projects which could deliver more benefits for the reason. This attitude actually prevents us from delivering the infrastructure we need.

A greenway on the line could be delivered in a much shorter time for a fraction of the price and get the benefits from that. Instead nothing will happen while we wait for €500m+ for a train service when a bus would suffice.

Is it not 10m uplift in property *tax* due to increased values over a specific timespan?

I don't believe property value increases are counted in CBAs at all.

actually rail supporters don't need to do anything, the case for the WRC was shown to be sound years ago, the only reason we didn't get phases 2 and 3 open was the recession.

what is effectively a minny motor way is not really low cost, you are not going to get a real greenway which is effectively a blue way realy which would be low enough cost.

even so, there are more important areas for investment in cycle infrastructure such as the major towns and cities.

that is i suspect why you won't get a green way, because in truth the amount that would benefit from it in the areas is low compared to the journey opportunities a regional railway can bring.

you made a statement that was incorrect, and then shifted the goal posts to simply north of claremorris when your statement was shown to be incorrect for the section south of claremorris.

you can twist it all you like, but i know what you said and you have just admitted what you originally said in your post which was most of the wrc, claremorris to sligo is not most of the wrc.

it would certainly help potentially to run more trains to limerick, but you would need to double limerick to limerick junction as well, + put in more passing loops on the line from ennis junction to athenry.

redoubling limerick to limerick junction is happening i believe.

yes, that was what you originally said, and then when i corrected you that this wasn't the case, that limerick to mayo was used up until the late 90s, you shifted the goalposts to north of claremorris, as in claremorris to sligo, which is not most of the WRC and which wasn't even being debated.

anyway you have been corrected so my work is done.

The closed WRC is 126km long.

The section north of Claremorris is 74km long and has been closed since the mid 70s.

Those 74km (which has been used since the mid 70s) represent the majority of the closed WRC.

Therefore "most of the closed WRC has been unused since the mid 70s" (I quotation marks as that is my original comment).

I really need to question your intelligence if you still think that you corrected me!