High Irish GDP is an illusion, Ireland is not that rich

Most healthcare is financed by taxes in Ireland (75%).

Yes, you are correct, about half the population must pay for GP visits.

There are two other fees in healthcare:

• ED fee = 100 euro
• DPS fee up to 80 pm?

Otherwise, all hospital care is free at point of care, paid for by taxes.

I was working off this: https://www.statista.com/statistics/557777/average-annual-salaries-in-europe/

. . . which gives an annual rather than an hourly rate and, more to the point, give an average rather than a median figure. (If we want to know which the economy as a whole pays the higher wages, I think the average is the appropriate figure to use, rather than the median.) Also my figures are for 2022; yours are for 2018.

The truth is that Ireland and France are probably broadly similar here; depending on which measure you pick (or can find) you can probably find one to be a bit ahead of the other, or vice versa. But my main points remain; the technical point that comparisons of earnings levels which ignore earnings inequality risk being misleading, and the policy point that securing higher earnings for some by accepting greater income inequality across the workforce as a whole is not, by and large, a good trade-off. If we're going to learn from other countries, it should be high-wage economies that are not characterised by greater inequality than we already have.

You keep replying to me, sitting back and criticizing my ideas, but offering no stats of your own. I find that pretty interesting .

In Singapore they pay maids and labourers badly (I don't agree with it but the pay is more than many of the surrounding countries hence popular to go there) but I specifically mentioned professionals who are getting paid by the same multinationals in MID level professional jobs get paid 120,000 now on average. I am very familiar with middle manager pay in Singapore.

When you realize they pay almost no income tax the take home is massive compared to Ireland. The mid level professionals will definitely feel richer in Singapore if they are locals who don't drive (cars are expensive) . WHEREAS if you were on 120,000 USD in Ireland almost half of it is taken in tax!

In Ireland it's the state that is rich...not you.

PS In Ireland we just give 100,000 + refugees and other recently arrived immigrants with children who may immediately declare homeless billions in social welfare and supports. Very few countries do that, instead they would make them work and thus make 'income equality' more obvious.

I'm not arguing for anything I'm saying that's what the country is like which therefore changes income inequality statistics and NO the rest of Europe is definitely NOT like that . Check policies in Denmark, Sweden, Poland, Italy, France etc and get back to me . You think asking refugees work for a living like the rest of us is lacking empathy? That's a good one . Fortunately many are eager to work I'll give them that

Get off yer high horse will ya and get busy taking care of the orphans.

Yer such a good person St Peter will be waiting for you at the gates nobody asked for your moralistic bullshit :).

Correct, almost half of their salary.

They also have precarious job security and can be sacked at the drop of the hat.

So a fair percentage of their extra income could be referenced as danger money. :)

In the US, you have to earn big and save big, in the hope you can gather enough money to see you through the future winters. Knowing that at any point in time, your days with the employer could be numbered and if you do get the sack, there aint much of a safety net below you.

I guess you could liken working on a permanent contract in the US to working as a contractor here.

High wage, low security.

There are huge numbers of Irish working on contracts in Ireland and I'm not just talking about IT contractors and construction but different industries including finance , scientific and education. They'll do their best to put you on contract employment. I know many myself, it ain't so different than the US as you think it is in that regard.

I've looked at lots of different metrics comparing Ireland to other European countries in terms of wealth and standard of living etc.

I think in general I'd put us above the eastern European countries and the Mediterranean countries like Spain, Italy, Greece etc, but at the lower end of the northern and Scandinavian countries like Germany, Sweden, Denmark, Holland etc.

These countries have been wealthy for centuries but we're catching up.

I think if we invest in renewable energy and storage like offshore wind, hydrogen etc and also with our good demographics, we can move slightly past some of these countries and stay ahead of the likes of Spain, Poland, Czech and Italy as I think their demographics will inhibit growth.

If you were to look at just one metric I think adjusted household disposable income reflects this.

This graph puts us 9th in the EU, which I think is fair. We've high salaries but pay more for everything.

Obviously our GDP is nonsense. Also AIC or GNI aren't an accurate reflection.

We've lots of advantages going into the future such as young population, good education, only english speaking country in the EU, good infrastructure (I know we're lacking in public transport), strong institutions, low corruption, rule of law etc.

We've a huge amount of experience and know-how also in areas such as IT, Pharma, etc.

I think renewable energy would be a brilliant industry to invest in as we could control almost the entire industry without needing outside resources (obviously we'll need to import some resources like steel etc).

The Irish government should make some effort to reduce the cost of things, then our salaries would give us a decent standard of living. Of course, housing is the obvious one, but that takes time to sort out. But other things are expensive and if we moved closer to the European average then we would be better off.

As for inheritance tax, I'd be more in favour of reducing taxation on the return from risk taking investments than reducing it on money derived from nepotism.

They have done something on car insurance. Public liability insurance is a real problem.

It's insanity the way they tax ETFs in this country even though some of the world's major ETFs are domiciled here. And this is definitely related to the topic at hand.

This has us below Romania and Lithuania so there's obvious anomalies.

I don't think it's a good metric. It has us too far off the likes of France and Germany and too close to Spain and Portugal. South Spain is quite poor. We're not that poor either.

I'd put us on the lower end of the Northern European countries and Scandinavian, but definitely above Eastern and Southern Europe.

Your graph on disposable income looks pretty accurate also. It might be the best metric I've seen. We're level with France and Finland and just below the traditionally wealthy countries.

I think if our economy remains relatively stable for next 20 years, we can solidify ourselves as a proper rich western country.

The crash in 07 really knocked us back on our ass for 10 years. Very hard to plan or invest in anything when you're in a crisis.

We can now invest properly in infrastructure, education, health, renewable energy, deprived communities etc.

I think in 20 years we could easily be exporting energy and also maybe 90% energy independent.

People spending so much on rent and housing isn't good for our economy either. It would be better if they were spending money in city centres and towns.

There is massive income inequality in ireland though, which is what most of us ignore when we dismiss stats like AIC.

Plenty of pensioners live in slum like accomodation (that they do own however) and Ireland still experience plenty of deaths due to fuel poverty.

In my experience that is not as common here in mainland Europe

Irish pensioners are well looked after, folks should try seeing what pensioners get in other countries they'll probably be shocked .

People on lower earnings can apply for housing subsidies and other supplementary welfare.

High earners get slaughtered with taxes, can't believe people claim high income inequality with a straight face here .

Ireland does not have high income inequality.

Banking in Ireland needs to be turned on its head but revolute may well do that. The insurance sector needs new competition also

If the landscape in Ireland suits growing grass then this is the place to have ruminants. The products produced there are consumed in many places, it is ridiculous to attribute the emissions solely to Ireland.

People in Norway or Sweden often live in houses also. It isn't entirely a problem, a house has ample space for solar panels and for a ground source heat pump, so could be be more or less energy neutral. Heat pump usage can be increased. The energy efficiency standards of much housing is indeed a disgrace, there should have been strict insulation standards any time after the 1973 oil crisis, but this can be improved.

CT is not 50% of tax revenues.

More like 25%.

I can't take any metric seriously that puts us below Romania. There's not an economist in the world that would agree we've a lower standard of living than Romania. So for that reason I ignore AIC. Likewise any GDP or GNI figures I ignore as ours is so distorted.

Our personal debt isn't that bad. It's more around average. That might be due to mortgages.

France has a lot of wealth but lots of immigrant population live in poverty. Also lots of rural poverty hence the Yellow Vest protests.

By "Eastern Europe" I just mean the former communist/Soviet states that recently joined the EU. I know geographically they're central Europe.

I know Poland is catching up but we've a 30 year head start. Eastern European countries don't have good demographics either with low birth rates and low immigration so I don't think they'll pass us out any time soon.

If you look at any metric on salary such as median/average gross/net we're amongst the highest in the EU. We're in top 3 for these metrics. I know it's expensive here but that must count for something.

Italy is 2 different countries really. The north might be slightly wealthier than us but rural and Southern Italy is much poorer. Also their demographics is a ticking bomb. You can buy nice apartments in the center of Genoa for example for €20,000 to 30,000. Old people dying off with no replacement. Likewise Spain and Portugal have poor demographics.

Germany likewise is two countries. Western Germany is wealthier than us but we're definitely above Eastern Germany.

What Ireland has is a huge middle class and high earning working class. Granted lots of those are squeezed with cost of living like property and childcare etc.

I think the two maps above best sum up Irelands standard of living.

We're at the lower end of northern/Scandinavian European countries but above Eastern and Southern Europe and I think we're only moving in one direction.

This graph augurs well for the future.

That's why I think with good policy and investment we can cement ourselves as a proper western Europe wealthy country.

One of the other problems with that measurement is that it looks at consumption within a State. If there is little travel abroad for holidays (e.g. Romania) it will compare well with a country where there is huge travel abroad for holidays (e.g. Ireland). Similarly, consumption statistics in Ireland are deflated by online purchases from the UK, as well as the cross-border trips to the North.