Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

But you didn’t actually provide an example of another group calling something Holocaust denial for a couple thousand deaths.

I'm buying into nothing. I know Hamas doesn't value its civilians but given the number of kids killed the Israelis don't either. You seem to be buying into the Israeli line that every death of civilians is the fault of Hamas. They don't even seem to have estimates of how many Hamas militants they have killed.

Thanks that was my point too in ripping apart the 10 9/11s argument I’d seen propagated by US Secretary of State and other media mouthpieces that have a hard on for wiping out Gaza

Conflating criticism of Israel and/or criticism of Zionism as both examples of antisemitism is exactly the trope I am referring to.

Orthodox Jews in the West Bank protesting Israel’s illegal occupation: are they antisemitic?

Bernie Sanders, critical of Israel policies, is he, a Jewish-American man, an anti-Semite?

Is calling out ethnic cleansing antisemitic ?

I think most people view the attack as an atrocity, this shouldn't give Israel the right to commit larger scale atrocities. And the reality is, it's dishonest to say that all Jewish people favour the actions of Israel and many are in fact outraged by it being used to justify them.

You think it was interesting that people thought it was Israel after Israel said they were going to bomb the hospital, and then said they had bombed the hospital and having a record of bombing hospitals?

It's more interesting for me that despite this, people insisted it wasn't the Israeli's.

Another interesting thing is how Israel were then able to produce audio clips within 24 hours of the event that were supposedly of Hamas terrorists admitting it was them (an audio clip that was said by experts to be fake) and they simultaneously expect people to believe that the attacks on Oct 7th took them completely by surprise.

Which do they have, incredible intelligence, or no intelligence at all?

Without more context the phrase hardly rises to antisemitism. It’s like saying “make America great again” is a Nazi slogan - you can sure find examples that support the context but does everyone saying that support that context. Same with people who simply support the freedom of people, not the genocide of other people.

So Bernie Sanders is an antisemite how does that work when he is Jewish? If Zionism can be split in so many hairs it really is watering things down to suggest criticism of it is antisemitic.

I wasn't saying all Jewish people favour the actions of Israel? I know that some don't.

It’s not that Hamas doesn’t value its civilians - they are actively working to ensure the maximum dead children from every retaliatory strike on wherever they’ve launched rockets from. This is their propaganda war, and they are wholly responsible for those deaths.

I perhaps wasn't clear in my last response. Bernie Sanders, who criticizes the Israeli government, is not antisemitic. If you criticize the Jewish religious philosophy of 'zionism', that's antisemitic. If you are against the migration of Jews to Israel (like we see here with people suggesting other places, I've seen Alaska suggested elsewhere), yes, that's antisemitic.

The world stands by and lets it happen because if you challenge Israel then you are subject to being called an anti-semite/anti-zionist or the latest one, Israelphobic. I very much doubt that the millions of Jews who suffered at the hands of the Nazis would approve of the Israeli state behaving in such a way in their name.

Does this take away or nullify what Hamas done? Of course not, they are ultimately responsible for their own actions just as the Israeli government, in particular the Natanyahu administration, are for creating the environment that allows this to grow. This is akin to matching the energy of an unruly toddler. If they lash out, then you lash out, they will continue to up the stakes meaning you also have to up the stakes. Continuously putting pressure on the Palestinian people creates more and more radicals. Every bomb dropped is a handful of new recruits, and let's be clear, the bombs have been dropping for decades. It has now reached the point that Hamas, a truely detestable organisation, were seen by the general population as the best chance for their voice to be heard.

That's how desperate they have become, to democratically elect thugs and idealogues because no other avenues of diplomacy worked. Empty promises were made and land grabs continued, persecution continued and bombings continued and when eventually people snap and do something equally horrendous back, the Israeli administration often responds with what is effectively *shocked pikichu face* and acts like the Palestinians were completely unprovoked.

This didn't start on October 7th.

Either way, I'm done with this thread. I'm done with being accused of being an anti-semite or whatever else, of aruging in bad faith (the last port of call for someone who can't robustly challenge the points made, I might add), of people deciding that their own metric of "excessive" is (Nagasaki and Hiroshima is an exceptionally hight bar I might add, one might argue that one civilian death is too excessive no matter how unrealistic that is) rather than objectively considering the laws laid out in the Geneva Convention.

I've said what I wanted to say, both sides are barbaric and this will continue until someone with some **** common sense opens some sort of dialogue.

I hope everyone enjoys your wee echo chamber of cheering on the massacre of a civilian population that a massive percentage of is children just because Hamas done something horrendous.

Hilarious that your first paragraph is about another propaganda lie from the Palestinian side. And yes I do ascribe those deaths to Hamas.

I find it really stupid to call someone an IDF supporter. How can you support the army of another country? It’s not some evil entity all of its own - it’s the sons and daughters of Israel, who risk their lives to protect their country against constant attack. Without them every Israeli would be dead long ago.