Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

BS there was no movement to surrender until after the atomic bombs and even after the first one the Japanese high command considered that the US had only one. Here is the assessment of what would happen in the case of an invasion

the Japanese had predicted the beachheads and when the invasion would take place. Predicted deaths on the Allied side would be 500k+( probably worse as the Japanese kamakazi intended to target troop carriers not destroyers or aircraft carriers) as the Japanese also planned mass suicide of civilians deaths on the Japanese side could run to 10 million+. And that was just for Kyushu.

There is nothing to indicate that Japan would surrender before even the second bomb. It was only then that Emperor Hirohito did not give the instructions to surrender until after that. As well there was a couple of coup attempts even between the bomb and the surrender so it's unlikely surrender would be uncontested without the bomb.

Basically go away and read you history. There is a lot of revisionist BS trying to paint the US as the great Satan on this one

The real truth if there was no bomb the Russians would have also invaded from the North and the results deaths would run into the tens of millions.

I just don't understand why the US is so invested in Israel, considering the US is mostly Christian, especially those in power, and Israel doesn't even believe in Jesus, and killed the person claiming to be him. What is this unbreakable tie? What Israel is doing is more horrific than all the school shootings of the last 40 year put together.

The fact of the matter is that Japan was defeated before the first bomb fell. In that respect I'd be in line with historians such as Basil Liddell Hart in his assessment of how correct America was to use the atomic bomb.

Milking their persecution more like it, and now it seems they have a free ride in the world to kill at will, they're out of control. Biden before 0ct 7th was knocking the Israeli PM, running him down for his poking of the situation, Biden telling the world ' no invite to the White House for him'' , now acting like they're besties .

Opposition are all making suppositions. Truman had to make the decision with the information before him. Did you read this bit

''Maddox also wrote, "Even after both bombs had fallen and Russia entered the war, Japanese militants insisted on such lenient peace terms that moderates knew there was no sense even transmitting them to the United States. Hirohito had to intervene personally on two occasions during the next few days to induce hardliners to abandon their conditions." "That they would have conceded defeat months earlier, before such calamities struck, is far-fetched to say the least."

Even after the triple shock of the Soviet intervention and two atomic bombs, the Japanese cabinet was still deadlocked, incapable of deciding upon a course of action due to the power of the Army and Navy factions in cabinet who were unwilling to even consider surrender. Following the personal intervention of the emperor to break the deadlock in favour of surrender, there were no fewer than three separate coup attempts by senior Japanese officers to try to prevent the surrender and take the Emperor into 'protective custody'. Once these coup attempts had failed, senior leaders of the air force and Navy ordered bombing and kamikaze raids on the U.S. fleet (in which some Japanese generals personally participated) to try to derail any possibility of peace. It is clear from these accounts that while many in the civilian government knew the war could not be won, the power of the military in the Japanese government kept surrender from even being considered as a real option prior to the two atomic bombs.''

Never been a Jewish president, and not likely, it would be a disaster. It would be no shock if someone in the middle east came to the aid of those getting slaughtered. Israel needs to be stopped

It seems odd that people are able to say for certain on here that war crimes haven't been committed by Israel but they aren't able to point out the proportional military advantage gained.

How does it work in practice? Would the IDF have to document their objective and how attacking, a refugee camp in this instance, gave them a proportional military advantage?

It's not that US has influence in Israel. It's that Israel has influence in the US. Israel drives hard bargains with the US. It's not an easy alliance.

There's nothing "revisionist" about what I'm saying at all. This information comes from established historians and just because it gets your knickers in a bit of a twist doesn't make it any less fact, and the fact of the matter is that Japan was looking for a way out long before the first bomb fell. Throughout 1945 there was much discussion amongst themselves on how best to approach ending the war, especially in a way that allowed them some modicum of honour. By the summer that became solidified when Hirohito instructed the Suzuki cabinet to come up with a way to end the war as soon as they could. Japan believed that they could make approaches to Joseph Stalin, but Stalin was more interested in pursuing his own offensive against Japan.

From Basil Liddell Hart's 'History of the Second World War'...

It was the Emperor himself who moved to cut the knot. On June 20 he summoned to a conference the six members of the inner Cabinet, the Supreme War Direction Council, and there told them "You will consider the question of ending the war as soon as possible." All six members of the council were in agreement on the score, but while the Prime Minister, the Foreign Minister and the Navy Minister were prepared to make unconditional surrender, the other three - the Army Minister and the Army and Navy Chiefs of Staff - argued for continued resistance until some mitigating conditions were obtained. Eventually it was decided that Prince Konoye should be sent on a mission to Moscow to negotiate for peace - and the Emperor privately gave him instructions to secure peace at any price. As a preliminary, the Japanese Foreign Office officially notified Moscow on July 13 that 'the Emperor is desirous of peace'.

The message reached Stalin just as he was setting off for the Potsdam Conference. He sent a chilly reply that the proposal was not definite enough for him to take action, or agree to receiving the mission. This time, however, he told Churchill of the approach, and it was of this that Churchill told Truman, adding his own tentative suggestion that it might be wise to modify the rigid demand for 'unconditional surrender'.

A fortnight later the Japanese Government sent a further message to Stalin, trying to make still clearer the purpose of the mission, but received a similar negative reply. Meantime Churchill's Government had been defeated at the General Election in Britain, so that Attlee and Bevin had replaced Churchill and Eden at Potsdam when, on July 28, Stalin told the Conference of the further approach.

The Americans, however, were already aware of Japan's desire to end the war, for their intelligence services had intercepted the cipher messages from the Japanese Foreign Minister to the Japanese Ambassador in Moscow.

Seems likely they targeted the media and likely specifically the reporter who had been warned previously. It's likely they targeted the house not the camp in this instance.

That's not to say they haven't targeted locations in this camp (more if a town with substantial buildings) before this.

The intent (I'm guessing) seems to be drive the population and also Hamas south.

No country is going to accept unconditional surrender in a blasé manner and Japan was no exception. However, by the time of the summer of 1945 the only thing that the Japanese government was looking to modify was assurances that Emperor Hirohito would remain safe after the surrender was agreed to. Ironically, the US had had no designs on Hirohito and could have let the Japanese know that.

Whether that would have been enough for the Japanese to surrender immediately in June or July is open to debate. But what isn't debatable is that they were looking to end the war and that could have happened without recourse to using the bomb.