Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Something very ironic about stereotyping most all criticism of Israel as antisemitism.

There is a large dose of anti-Semitism on this thread.

There is also a lot of criticism directed towards the Israeli government and its actions.

They are entirely separate.

And there are posters denying the anti-Semitism rampant across the thread, some of it cleverly disguised.

There is more Islamophobia in the West now than there is anti-Semitism. That's not to take away from the issue — anti-Semitism persists, Jews are still targeted and are still the subject of crazy conspiracy theories. But in this century we have seen Muslims become the subject of hatred, targeting and stereotyping in the West — quite openly and even right up to offices of State — whereas anti-Semitism seems more limited and constrained these days. It's just as easy to suppose that many peoples' views on Palestine are coloured by Islamophobia as it is to say that views on Israel are coloured by anti-Semitism.

Personally however, I think many more people are just guided by a perception of what they feel is right, justified and proportionate — regardless of the religion — and that Israel being the infinitely stronger party in this conflict with the power to dictate the situation in a way the Palestinians cannot means that they will come under criticism through that lens. Attributing that criticism to anti-Semitism I would surmise is wrong in the overwhelming majority of cases.

Labelling other posters comments as stupid, to my mind says a lot more about you than it does about me, and not seeing the point I was trying to make proves it. And neither am I saying that using the atomic bomb was right or wrong, just making the point that there was two sides to the story. Perhaps, if you saw the results of a bombing, you might have a different opinion too? But one thing is for sure, the sheer destructive force of the Atomic bomb and MAD doctrine it espoused, has meant that it has never been used since. And only a madman (Putin? ) would consider using it now. Had the US not bombed Japan and ended the war, what would the death toll have been? Any comment on that? If Israel did not have the ability to defend itself, would it even exist today? To me, I don't make the difference between burnt and mutilated Men, Women and Children, be they Israeli or Palestine. They all look the same in death. They're wrong, both sides, and I've seen up close and personal what happens when a City, Town or village is Bombed. It sure as hell isn't pretty. Try holding a 7 or 8 year old kid while doctors are working on her with out anesthetics.

As for the "yeah, maybe people should think twice about waging wars"??? Dream on.. men have been killing each other since as long as they've walking the earth. Only difference is that over time, they have improved it to the extent that they now have the capacity to completely destroy all life on the planet. Any ideas on how to change that?.

Can you point to some of such posts please. I'm not on here continuously, but have spent a number of hours at a time on the thread across various days and I can honestly say I haven't frequent examples of anti-Semitism. I'm sure there is some, but rampant implies it is very prevalent and what I've seen is a long way from that and more a case of one of posts from young accounts.

In the same way that Palestine does not equal Hamas, disapproval of Israel's action does not equal anti-Semitism.

It's hamas that did this to Palestine not Israel

"Of the two dozen journalists who have died, 20 were Palestinian, three were Israeli and one was Lebanese. At least eight other journalists have been reported injured, while three others are believed missing or detained, according to the CPJ."

:(

Not even Israel is claiming this.

That's how wide of the mark you are.

"If Hamas were to release the hostages, Israel would find it much harder to justify the actions currently being taken."

The problem with this is that Israel is not a normal state - it is filled with suspicion of and hatred towards their neighbours. I believe they would have absolutely no compunction in levelling a substantial part of the Gaza strip if and when they get the chance. They'd call it self defence and de militarising/ de nazifying whilst obliterating countless innocent & guilty people.

Thankfully the US seem to have some leverage and can pull on the collar.

Tom Friedman making some great points in the NYT today. To paraphrase (my notes in brackets):

• Netanyahu is a bad actor - what Israel needs is a PM that would declare an end to West Bank settlement expansion and to overhaul relations with the PA, such that it can credibly govern a post-Hamas Gaza. (to me, these seem very far from being realised)
• Israel can only build proper legitimacy with its allies if it stops annexing West Bank land (unarguable)
• Israel is fighting a fully-fledged war in Gaza against Hamas - Hamas still has residual capacity to launch rockets daily and even to launch a seaborne attack on Israel on Thursday. He notes that its terrifying to see the resources Hamas has devoted to building its military capability versus Gaza's evident human poverty. (this is something that doesn't get enough attention)
• Netanyahu's coalition actually helps Hamas - by behaving in ways that actually help unify the various anti-Israeli fronts. This includes the restrictions they placed on Temple Mount, putting harsher conditions on Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails and planning an acceleration of settlement building (can't argue with that, Netanyahu is pandering to the right wingers in his cabinet - the quid pro quo is him staying out of jail)
• The normalisation of relations with Arab countries was proceeding further - the Saudi deal would have been the crowing achievement of that
• Iran is key and is the ultimate bad actor in the region. It controls 4 failed states through its proxies; Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Yemen.

key quote:

(I agree - beware the simplifiers)