CF SA ban next week

tonysopprano · 24-10-2023 2:01pm #1

Devil's advocate:

If I bought a SA CF secondhand, i.e. owned and licenced previously before 18th Sept 2015 but with a FAC in force, as the act above only refers to FAC and not the person who is licenced.

Another way to look at it, if I sell my CF SA tomorrow (it was owned and licenced since 2010 and was licenced on relevant date), could the new buyer have a case for fighting

otmmyboy2 · 24-10-2023 2:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058319430/cf-sa-ban-next-week

Correct me if I am wrong but that solely refers to renewals, and the new buyer would:

1 - Not be a renewal,

2 - Not be the same firearms certificate(because they are per individual, not transferrable between individuals) which was in force on the relevant date(1st August IIRC).

That being said, the scale of this extreme backdating of law(8 years!) would be reasonable enough for a judicial review I suspect, or a full district court case depending on the pockets of the individuals.

I know there is a law against crowdfunding cases here, but given this crowd have been getting away with funding for court cases/legal fees explicitly I cannot see why it wouldn't be possible for us:

https://www.gofundme.com/f/hunt-sabs-ireland-legal-fees

tonysopprano · 24-10-2023 3:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121278749#Comment_121278749

Compare the wording to the pistol ban in 2009, which is clear about the applicant having an FAC previously

This meant that pistols held previously could be re-licenced.

They tried to be smarter this time, but I think it backfired

Grizzly 45 · 24-10-2023 8:55pm

That being said, the scale of this extreme backdating of law(8 years!) would be reasonable enough for a judicial review I suspect, or a full district court case depending on the pockets of the individuals.

Correct...Legal advice has been sought on this point and it is fightable in a high court judicial case on PROPERTY rights, not firearms law. Also, research has been done on whether there is case law on the Irish govt having to cough up on compensation for depriving people of their use of their property.Next point is; getting finances together to fight such.

I know there is a law against crowdfunding cases here, but given this crowd has been getting away with funding for court cases/legal fees explicitly I cannot see why it wouldn't be possible for us:

It was in relation to this case in Co Limerick.as it was a dist court matter of thuggery by our black balaclavaed friends.it didn't merit much funding https://huntsabsireland.com/news/victory-for-irish-hunt-saboteurs-as-we-win-landmark-case-vs-the-state . Landmark case.....WHO are they kidding? Cases of common assault by common thugs that were dismissed due to lack of evidence haven't exactly made a fortune either with their crowdfunding over 3 years either.3.5 grand.

Anyhoo,we digress.Apparently there IS a way of doing such cases and getting funding from outside the state. It seems Mr Burke who was always waiting for his dad to pick him up from outside the school where he "works" and is now a guest of the nation in Mountjoy has been doing such for a while.At the moment this whole thing is being looked at by the Law Society,and its kind of a "Vicky Pollard" situation at the moment[yes, but no, but, yes, but no , but yes!] with them,as they no doubt scramble to figure out how to maximize profits from this situation of class action lawsuits. I think their other main concern is the system being overloaded by frivolous class action suits.Like our Sabbing friends getting together enough bobs by go fund me to launch cases.

Final option is a "John Waters" self launched HC case. However, the axiom of "the man who defends himself has a fool for a client!"[Coined no doubt by someone in the legal profession].Would most deffo apply here.As Mr Waters &Co found out to their costs with their COVID challenge.

Cass · 24-10-2023 8:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058319430/cf-sa-ban-next-week

No you couldn't as outlined above. If the license was not in effect prior to Sept 2015 you cannot apply for a renewal. Your license does not carry over to someone else.

Not the clearest legislation but the meaning is "known".

The one difference, on my reading, between it and pistol ban is how they say "was granted before Sept 2015 and in force on the date".

Seems to me they are trying to stop anyone with a license before Sept 2015 from relicensing a firearm they have in storage or sold and are thinking of buying back who may have cancelled or let their license lapse/did not renew.

Grizzly 45 · 24-10-2023 9:04pm

This meant that pistols held previously could be re-licenced.

They tried to be smarter this time, but I think it backfired

They did the most important thing in the eyes of the Irish state.AVOID paying out compensation for confiscated property,as it sets precedents that would cost the Irish state billions.Hence the 2008 attempt by AGS to negate all the still active licenses for CF handguns by claiming "No good reason for possession"existed in the mistaken belief that at the time, IPSC was the only shooting discipline in Ireland.They couldn't do it with the SACFs as 99% of them had been DC case victories and there were multi disciplines and use in hunting.So they had to go with this new line.Trouble was;They never gave a timeframe as to when this legislation might be introduced and 7 years later has left the doors open for a legal challenge.

Yes it is a self built bomb of the Irish govt.It just needs a financial detonater from our side to activate it

Grizzly 45 · 25-10-2023 12:08pm

On a somewhat "positive" if there is anything positive about a SACF ban. The two known Ruger mini14 rifles in Ireland have cleared AGS inspection[in one case] and are due to be relicensed as straight-pull bolt actions.The work was signed off by two different gun smiths once they were satisfied with the owners own disabling procedures of the gas systems.As there is no protocol on how this must be done in Irish or EU firearms legislation,it is left up to you or your gunsmith to disable the system or what your GS is happy to sign off on.

tonysopprano · 25-10-2023 6:18pm

"No you couldn't as outlined above. If the license was not in effect prior to Sept 2015 you cannot apply for a renewal. Your license does not carry over to someone else.

Not the clearest legislation but the meaning is "known".

The one difference, on my reading, between it and pistol ban is how they say "was granted before Sept 2015 and in force on the date"."

1) Intimating that you "know what they meant" does not mean squat, as the law relies on what is written in legislation not what they meant to write

2) You are missing the point completely again. The 2009 legislation specifically stated that if YOU(the applicant) held an FAC, previously, for the firearm, you could reapply, whereas this new legislation states that if the firearm was previously licenced and in effect on Sept 18th 2015(not stated by who) then an application to reapply shall not be affected.

In Ireland, the firearm is licenced not the person, so the terms reapply and relicence apply to the firearm not the person.

This is what legislation says.

Munsterlad102 · 25-10-2023 11:27pm

How long until we see the pre Sept 2015 CF SA getting refused renewals?

Cass · 26-10-2023 12:28am

@tonysopprano -Intimating that you "know what they meant" does not mean squat, as the law relies on what is written in legislation not what they meant to write.

True.

@tonysopprano -You are missing the point completely again.

Again! When was the first time?

@tonysopprano - The 2009 legislation specifically stated that if YOU(the applicant) held an FAC, previously, for the firearm, you could reapply, whereas this new legislation states that if the firearm was previously licenced and in effect on Sept 18th 2015(not stated by who) then an application to reapply shall not be affected.

2009 section 3(D)(C) - a short firearm for which the applicant for the firearm certificate held a firearm certificate on or before 19 November 2008.

2023 section 10 - (3) This section shall not affect the possibility of renewal of a firearm certificate for a semi-automatic centre-fire rifle under section 3 of this Act, or under section 9 of the Act of 1964, where the firearm certificate was first granted on or before 18 September 2015 and was in force on the relevant date

In both cases it says if the firearm certificate was granted on or before the relevant date you can apply to renew (I'm paraphrasing). The 2009 one does use the word applicant but it's meaningless in the sense of how it's believed that the use of the word somehow exempts the sacf rifles from being licensed by someone else if it was licensed by ANYONE prior to the relevant date.

If you believe I'm wrong, well then off ya bounce and license one. Let me know how you get on.

@tonysopprano - In Ireland, the firearm is licenced not the person,

The license is issued/granted to the person applying (the applicant) so the person holds the license, hence is licensed. In short don't confuse the "one license per firearm" system we have with the person not being the licensee/licensed person.

If you believe otherwise then take one of your firearms that are licensed and give it to someone else without a license. By your logic that person will be fine (exempt from prosecution) as the gun is licensed.

@tonysopprano - so the terms reapply and relicence apply to the firearm not the person.

This is what legislation say's

The terms "reapply" and "relicense" don't (afaik) appear anywhere in legislation.

That aside, and at the risk of repeating myself, if the firearm is licensed then once done anyone can possess it, which is not the case. Hence it's the person that is licensed, albeit to a specific, and singular, firearm.

Mellor · 26-10-2023 8:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283718#Comment_121283718

I completely agree with your first part. I’ve pointed that out previously, to the annoyance of others, that the law as written is the law. Regardless of technicalities or intention.

But that said, I completely agree with @Cass‘s post above. Your interpretation of the law is off.

whereas this new legislation states that if the firearm was previously licenced and in effect on Sept 18th 2015(not stated by who) then an application to reapply shall not be affected.

Key word in bold.

The 2009 section refered to applications, including some new applications. So it had to limit CF pistols to current holders.

The 2023 section only refers to re-applications. So stating the applicant is the licensee is redundant, as that already confirmed by the use of reapply. A new applicant is not reapplying.

In Ireland, the firearm is licenced not the person, so the terms reapply and relicence apply to the firearm not the person.

This is what legislation says.

I don’t think either of those is correct.

A license is issued to a specific person for a specific firearm. Both are licensed. If it was only the firearm, then any licensed firearm could be passed around to anyone. Obviously that’s not the case

And If the terms reapply and relicense applied to the firearm. Then when purchasing a second hand firearm, you’d only need to lodge a renewal to arrive. But you can’t do that. It’s a full new application.

The reason for the different wording between 2009 and 2023 is simply that the 2009 also included new applications in the previous subsection.

Grizzly 45 · 26-10-2023 10:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284769#Comment_121284769

Pretty much never, unless something drastic and stupid happens. According to "DOJ figures "pre 2015 there were only 20-25 of these licensed in the ROI.Like IPSc shooters representing the Irish Republic they will go the way of the dinosaurs and become extinct as the owners die off or retire from the disiplines.DOJ/AGS cant use the argument as they tried with the CFhandguns that there is no good reason in Ireland to own such.As well as 25 DC cases stating there is legitimate reason to own such.

So unless they are trying something new in the future proposed legislation.Which is currently been worked on, and there are 90 points that apparently are going to be changed,all we can do is wait and see.

dalalada · 26-10-2023 12:33pm

90 points? What are some of these points about

Grizzly 45 · 26-10-2023 8:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286145#Comment_121286145

No idea...But that's from two trusted sources who were at a recent DOJ gunsmith/dealers meeting.

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CF SA ban next week

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