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Infrastructure that never happened

124

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    It's still there, but between T1 and T2. It will be used by Metrolink.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,730 ✭✭✭✭L1011




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,220 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Urban legend



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Not a box, no, but an area has been kept free of services between T1 and T2 to facilitate an underground rail station.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,730 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    There isn't that either.

    The T2 Surface Carpark, which isn't between the terminals (what is between the terminals is basically more terminal - the bus gates and airport lounges in the remains of Pier C of T1) is where the station will be dug and then a new bus terminal put on top of it. Its beside the church.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 157 ✭✭ArcadiaJunction




  • Registered Users Posts: 157 ✭✭ArcadiaJunction




  • Registered Users Posts: 157 ✭✭ArcadiaJunction




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,741 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    You'd have to wonder what sort of drug intake at council meetings was going on.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,730 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    A now deceased rail enthusiast drew up nice looking documents (but not viable plans) for tram-trains on basically every closed railway line and a few councils took them quite seriously. I don't know if there's an archive of his website anywhere.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,741 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    At one point the WRC wikipedia page had a diagram showing it being reconstructed as an LGV (yes, as in TGV)

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users Posts: 157 ✭✭ArcadiaJunction


    Dublin Corportation had a plan in the 1930s which included - I am not making this up - Closing the loop line because the stairs were were a problem for old folks using them. Stopping all rail service into the city and reopening the canals for passenger use, and my favourite of all, turning O'Connell Street into an airport. This is not a joke the plan is out there if you search.



  • Registered Users Posts: 157 ✭✭ArcadiaJunction


    There was also that psychotic plan to build a flood barrier from Howth to Bray with 'a Luas running down the middle'.



  • Registered Users Posts: 157 ✭✭ArcadiaJunction


    Killed himself because his rural rail evangelism didn't take off. Tragic but true. Poor guy had a lot of issues and took his zeal for his Rural Rail Link plans way too OTT.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,175 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek




  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,175 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,325 ✭✭✭ratracer




  • Registered Users Posts: 266 ✭✭Ronald Binge Redux


    He can be, but he should be left to rest in the peace that was denied him by some smartarses on the Internet while he lived.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Agreed



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,741 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    They wanted to fill in the canals and squeeze in a four-lane dual carriageway (just about possible) or go the whole hog and construct Newcastle-style twin-deck full urban motorway.

    Scrap the cap!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,741 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Post deleted by mod for violating Godwin’s law.

    Post edited by spacetweek on

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,766 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    BRT for Dublin. This was what was being touted when BusConnects first launched. Turned out, it's just more dressed-up QBCs.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,175 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Yep, Swiftway it was called. 6 of the Bus Connects spines are the new incarnations of the Swiftway routes, but are a downgrade in terms of spec.

    It really annoyed me the way the gov buried the idea and seemed to deny all knowledge.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,870 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    This is the sort of thing that comes to mind whenever I hear complaints that our local councils haven't enough power and should be given greater funding and authorities. To paraphrase the quote attributed to Churchill; the greatest argument against having Local Councillors is a 5 minute conversation with the average Local Councillor. And I don't for a second believe that it'd attract a better class of politician-look at what we send to the Dáil.

    I'm not sure if they're still there, but a few years ago someone looked for every wikipedia page they could find about places or buildings in Galway/Mayo/Sligo along the general WRC corridor and edited them to insert a line saying "X will be served in the near future by the Y station on the Western Rail Corridor"



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,175 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    There’s a lot of true believers out there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,147 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    Green energy proposal Spirit of Ireland, got a lot of press at the time but never much in the way of detailed design.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    It's far too early to call these two as "never happened"


    The GRAZE gas plant is not yet behind the published schedule, and Silvermines Hydro is moving to the planning phase:

    https://tippfm.com/news/energy-environment/huge-step-forward-multi-million-euro-silvermines-hydro-plant/



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Ironically there is already some murmurings coming out of some official circles about Double Deckers not having enough capacity even under BusConnects, particularly with the lack of driver shortages and passenger numbers up 10% versus 2019 and likely to continue increasing. They seem to be talking about BRT might be needed again!

    Interestingly Dublin Airport is currently getting shiny new 18 meter EV BRT's for the car park service, these might act as a test bed for BRT.

    I've said a few times, but Swiftway shouldn't have been cancelled, instead it should have been integrated into the overall BusConnects plan.

    Of course I've no doubt by the time we get some BRT routes, they will already open overcapacity and we will start talking about Luas lines for these routes!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 266 ✭✭Ronald Binge Redux


    A missing piece of the Dublin Rail Rapid Transit Proposals was a proposed busway from the Central Bus and Train Station to Tallaght via Mount Argus. It would have ran on bus lanes to Mount Argus, and then on a dedicated busway from Mount Argus via Kimmage, Templeogue and the N81.

    The route was protected for a couple of years. Then it got low density housing built on key parts of it, not least Mount Argus itself. It would have been a ready made surface metro route if it had survived.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,609 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Ironically, BRT isnt really about the bus type, you could put any bus you like on it. Once theyre pretty much the same floor height , for access.

    Its more about the system - so similar to a luas , good stops - no on board ticketing , short dwell times and and a route designed and engineered to allow the bus travel smoothly and quickly ..

    Theres no sharp turns on a luas line- theres no speed bumps, and theyve a dedicated route..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Absolutely. Strictly speaking you can even use double deckers on BRT routes. For instance the NTA did a report into BRT ten years ago and considered three door, two stairs tri axles like they have in Berlin for BRT here. However in that report and with Swiftway they decided on 18m single deck bendi buses like the ones in Belfast (and coming to Dublin Airport).

    They also really liked the 24m biarticulated buses, but they aren’t road legal at the moment and would require a change to legislation.

    But as you say, BRT is much more about the supporting infrastructure than the specific vehicle, dedicated lanes, priority, off bus ticketing, etc. One requirement for the vehicles however is usually no driver interaction, multiple doors and entry/exit through any door.

    Basically like Luas but with a bus.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,237 ✭✭✭gjim


    A key part of BRT type services is that the dwell time must be fixed/predictable which is very difficult to achieve with double decker buses even with 3 doors - more half the passengers are funnelled through a single one-way stairway.

    The fixation with double deckers in ireland is odd - nearly the entire rest of the world phased them out decades ago and I'd be surprised if they comprised more than 1 or 2% of the fleet world-wide. Single decker artics can support BRT/tram like patterns of use and can share infrastructure with trams. Double deckers cannot. Never mind the accessibility argument.

    Yeah, yeah they have them in Berlin, but even there are 10 single decker buses in Berlin for every double decker and their most prominent use - on line 100 - is primarily a tourist route.

    Going non-standard/bespoke for PT infrastructure and stock is never a good idea - particularly for a relatively small country. Having a unique rail-gauge should be enough.

    BusConnects was a missed opportunity to strategically plan for moving away from this anachronistic bus format. Keep a few around for tourists.



  • Registered Users Posts: 266 ✭✭Ronald Binge Redux


    Has anyone read Geldof's Is That It? In it there is a pitch perfect recreation of a 1970s smoky and condensation ridden bus run from Blackrock into town, complete with an annoying bus conductor and an utter sense of despair. Let's sell that to tourists looking for the rale aul times!



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    In fairness, I’ve the exact same memories of the single decker buses in Cork in the 80’s

    The reintroduction of the double deckers in Cork has been greatly improved things and people don’t get left behind at the stops anymore which was far too frequent with the single deckers.

    Of course you could also solve that problem but improving the frequency the single deckers, which frankly is badly needed on many routes in Cork. Too many routes in Cork have a supposed frequency of every 20 minutes and then only turn up once an hour.

    BTW there is actually a BRT route in China that has a bus every 10 seconds!

    Unfortunately with the ongoing driver shortages, I do t think higher frequency (non bendy) single deckers will be an option (outside of the O Route). I agree gjim that bendy single deckers are the best option for BRT routes if we get them.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 266 ✭✭Ronald Binge Redux


    Good points bk and I fully agree. We need a mix - horses for courses!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,572 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    The dart to Dingle....




  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,940 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    In Nice, France, they have loads of small single decker buses that take about 70 passengers, nearly all standing with just the odd seat dotted around. On bus validation of tickets, with the equivalent of our 90 min ticket, so no need for every passenger to validate. They are fast and frequent.

    I would not like to take one for a long journey though - where long is measured in 100s of metres rather than 10s of Kms - maybe a 15 min journey would be the most I would contemplate.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I haven’t had the pleasure of visiting Nice yet, definitely on the list.

    Looking at pictures of their busses, you find those type of busses all over mainland Europe. I’ve been on loads like that in Eastern Europe. Single deckers with three doors, enter/exit through any door, no driver interaction, off bus ticketing or validate ticket on machines on the bus.

    They usually have fantastic dwell times that would put Dublin to shame and are fast and nippy.

    You are correct, you wouldn’t want to stand on them too long, but up to 30 minutes tends to be ok. The thing about them though is that in most cities with these folks usually take trains or Metro into the city and normally these busses cover just the last few km connecting these stations. They tend not to have the exhaustingly long routes like Dublin has.

    I see Nice has three tram lines similar to Luas in a city the size of Belfast. It seems the trams make up the core of the transport system (including serving the airport) and then the busses operate off that.

    If some day we had let’s say 3 Metro lines, Dart+, DART Underground, a couple more Luas lines, then I think we could also possibly switch to a similar model, we just aren’t there yet.

    Amsterdam is an interesting comparison, almost perfect match for Dublin in terms of population size and density. Dublin City Bus fleet has 1,200 busses, while Amsterdam has just 230 busses and they are single deckers!

    Of course Amsterdam also has 5 metro lines and 15 tram lines. Thus they don’t need anywhere near the same numbers of busses or per vehicle capacity. Their busses just fill in the gaps between the metro and tram lines. They aren’t the back bone of public transport like they are in Dublin.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,940 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    When I was last in Nice, there was just one tram line, but other lines in planning and construction.

    What was interesting was the Massena Place crossing. There were no over head cables, and the tram dropped the pentagraph and travelled on battery across the square. That would have been the right choice for O'Connell Street for both the Red and Green lines.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 763 ✭✭✭Jayuu


    "You are correct, you wouldn’t want to stand on them too long, but up to 30 minutes tends to be ok. The thing about them though is that in most cities with these folks usually take trains or Metro into the city and normally these busses cover just the last few km connecting these stations. They tend not to have the exhaustingly long routes like Dublin has."

    I'll be honest and say that if I had to stand for 30 minutes every time I used a bus to go into town I would only use them when I didn't have a choice. People can criticise me all they want for that attitude but I suspect that I would be far from the only person who would think this. Also I suspect that out of rush hour the main users of the bus network would tend to be older people that may have physical difficulty in standing for that period.

    Like it or not buses are the backbone of our public transport network at the moment and likely to be for quite a while into the future. If we are going to expect people to abandon private transport in favour of public transport we need to be offering them a reasonable experience. Cost may become a factor as well as journey times for private transport but it would be better if we could make use of public transport a virture rather than a necessity.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Ideally yes, yet people stand on bus, Luas or Dart for more than 30 minutes every day.

    And it isn’t unique to Dublin, people squeeze onto and stand on trains and Metros all over the world every day. Ever try commuting in rush hour in Tokyo or London. Lots of folks standing shoulder to shoulder for 30 minutes or more.

    Sure, it is your decision if you prefer to drive. But don’t be surprised if it becomes more and more expensive and difficult to drive into a city. Increasing traffic congestion, city center car bans, congestion charging, ever more expensive parking, etc.

    Of course non of the above is ideal, but frankly that is the reality of big cities the world over and as Dublin quickly grows it will be increasingly the reality for Dublin too.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,940 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Oh - there is an alternative. Work from home using the internet, or cycle, walk or use an e-bike or e-scooter. Not open to everyone, but driving a car into a city will not be open to everyone either as congestion increases as will charges associated with driving into cities.

    In the late 1890s, the biggest problem facing large cities was horse ****, and moving it out of the city. Canals were built to move it out of London.

    Tram lines and metros will be needed to solve the congestion in Dublin - if only they would get on and build them now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 763 ✭✭✭Jayuu


    Yes some people do stand as a matter of choice but most look for a seat and stand only when one isn't available and aren't particularly happy about that. There's a reason that we have majority seat buses. Part of it is historic but I can tell you now that if somebody in Dublin Bus suggested tomorrow that Route G1 (for example) would transition to a majority standing bus there would be an outcry from commuters and local politicians all along that route.

    Yes you could still push it through and people woud have no choice but to use it as the majority of them don't have any alternative but far from making public transport a more palatable choice for people it will simply harden attitudes against it. Ultimately that is counter productive to what both of us want. I'm a supporter of public transport but I'm also realistic about how the public view it.

    We're probably a bit off topic now though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    The O route would be a perfect fit for a high capacity single decker with mainly standing space.

    The main users of the route would be:

    1. Those making last mile journeys after coming off a spine/radial route.
    2. Those making a connection with another spine/radial to take them to another part of the city.

    I'd doubt there'd be many long journeys made on that route.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yes some people do stand as a matter of choice but most look for a seat and stand only when one isn't available and aren't particularly happy about that

    Of course at an individual level, most people would rather sit if a seat is available. But we are talking more at a capacity / public transport planning level.

    The obvious counter argument is the Luas, Luas trams have far more standing space then seated space, according to Luas:

    The Citadis 401 Tram on the Red Line has 72 seats and can hold up to 219 standing passengers. The Citadis 402 Tram on the Green Line has 68 seats and can hold up to 251 standing passengers.

    At peak times most people on a Luas are standing and journey times on the Luas can be up to an hour!

    And yet Luas is ranked as the most popular form of public transport by people in Ireland!

    It would seem that people don’t mind standing as long as the service is fast, frequent and reliable.

    People prefer to sit on our buses, because of how slow they are, stuck in traffic, terrible dwell times and crawling through winding estates. I’d suspect people would be much more willing to stand, if it was on a BRT flying down a dedicated lane on the likes of the Swords Road, etc.

    It is really just perception and what we are use to.

    Don’t get me wrong I don’t think our double deckers with their lots of seats are going anywhere for the forseeable future. But in the long term things might gradually change as more Luas lines are rolled out, 0 ring type routes, BRT and metro lines.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,940 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The transition to single decker majority standing buses would be acceptable if they were quick, frequent and reliable. The O route would be a perfect start, as they will be single decker to get under the bridges, and should be frequent and reliable because their route is relatively short, with most passengers likely to be only travelling a few Kms.

    Now, single decker buses could be used to augment some routes providing shorter elements of routes, but increasing frequency during busy times.

    Dublin bus will evolve - it has tried single decker buses, and unfortunately - even the dreaded bendy bus No 10 route that could not manage the turn from Lincoln Place into Westland Row - the bus was not bendy enough.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    Back before covid, you could sometimes see one of the two Donnybrook single deckers work an extra 145 in from Woodbrook in the morning peak. Don't think theyve been seen on it recently however.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,237 ✭✭✭gjim


    Articulated buses can have as many seats as a double decker - 40 to 60 - although typically, in my experience of using them, they generally have been configured at the bottom of that range. And all the seats are equally accessible to all passengers - while with double deckers using the upstairs seats is impractical if you have a disability, are elderly, have a kid's buggy, e.g., or a lot of shopping/luggage, etc.

    They form the basis of a long term on-street public transport strategy as they can share infrastructure, stops, ticketing systems and road space with trams. So typically what I've seen in a number of European cities is an evolution: as bus routes become busier, they are first provided with more segregated road space. If demand increases, these alignments can be upgraded to trolley buses, which can eventually be upgraded to tramway but all formats can share street space and infrastructure. BusConnects could have provided the first steps for such an evolution by at least providing reserved alignments which could later become hybrid bus/tram.

    The issue with them, from a Dublin perspective, is that they cannot share routes/alignments with double decker buses - or you end up with the worst operational characteristics of both - so it's a bit of an all-or-nothing thing. It's a pity BusConnects didn't pick one route and have it dedicated to this vehicle format - maybe the E spine - which could use Luas infrastructure between Stephens green and Parnell Sq.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,518 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    There recently. I found their interchange link between the two main tram lines at Massena/Jean De Medecin to be interesting. Similar setup to our Red/Green interchange at OCS/Abbey which caused all sorts of angst with people saying it's not a proper interchange. Also been debate here about our future Red to Metro interchange and the distance involved.

    In Nice the West/East line is underground in the city centre and to transfer to North/South line (street tram) you've to come up 2/3 escalators, walk across a plaza and then go across across a busy traffic junction.



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