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New World Rugby Calendar and World Cup format

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭B2021M


    I'd tend to agree re the value of a triple crown but I wouldn't think Fiji or Georgia would win one either if they were in the 6N.

    Italy have never beaten Scotland, Ireland and England in the same year.

    I was just questioning if it is certain that Wales are in terminal decline and not a top 8 team? They also won a GS in 2005 and went on to lose to Fiji in 07 WC so there have been highs and lows before.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,172 ✭✭✭OldRio


    The WRU are in serious problems. On the field and off. Teams have shed lots of players over the summer. Attendances are poor. Soccer seems to be the main sport in what was once a Rugby dominated country.

    Only recently amateur teams were fined for payment to players. That's only the tip of the Iceberg.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I think the WRU and the professional game in Wales is in terminal decline, but the National Team is streaky as all hell and I would never write them off in a competition. They are losing a lot of players that they don't have ready made replacements for though and I think their "up" years are going to be fewer and farther between.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    As others have pointed out a lot has changed in Welsh rugby since that quoted Up & Down. Both institutionally and culturally, rugby there is on the wane and there's no real sense of a solid plan to arrest that drop. I think their baseline is strong enough that they'll probably just rot in mediocrity for the medium term, but any more bumps in the road and it might get worse. We'll see if 2022 & their losses to Italy and Georgia become a norm, or an outlier.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 891 ✭✭✭moycullen14


    Given the increased importance and profile of the RWC, are the Lions are becoming a bit of an anachronism?

    Are we not at the point where we (Ireland) don't need or want anyone's help to compete with NZ, SA and AUS? There's always been a whiff of inferiority off the Lions. That said, the legacy and the history of the Lions is massive, it would be a shame to see it go but time marches on.....

    Is there even any point of the next tour to Australia? At the moment each of the 4 nations would easily beat AUS on their own.

    I guess money talks.....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,172 ✭✭✭OldRio


    Many many years ago it was exciting to watch the tours of the Lions. Tours to far flung destinations you had only seen on maps.

    Nowadays you couldn't pay me to watch a match. From a pure rugby point of view, utterly meaningless.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    The sanzar teams are fairly dependent on the income from the tours. They're really not like any other tour from that perspective.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,867 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    The top. sides have to do more.

    Why is it always the Tier 1 sides? Why can't Tier 2 sides do more, just like the Tier 1 sides historically did?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,867 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    There was a time when Ireland toured the southern hemisphere and NZ toured Europe on the basis of breaking-even. Where was Portugal/Georgia/Spain when there was feck all money to be made from rugby? Conveniently silent

    Anybody could look at Argentina, Italy and France as good examples of former Tier 2 sides that took a few risks and were rewarded with the status they hold today. Nothing stopping Portugal from doing something similarly risky and getting rewarded for it



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Not sure what the "conveniently" is meant to infer here? I think you're overselling the capacity of these Unions to somehow magic an international tour, or wield clout to make it worth the SH teams coming to their countries (though like I said, Argentina did play a pre-WC match in Madrid); I'm sure their lower status breeds a certain ceiling of imagination, but you can't compare countries that have always had a solid rugby and codified culture with those that don't - and with the coffers to match the disparity.

    And your 3 examples are all teams who made the change in status during the amateur era; think it's fair to say that standards, conditioning and most importantly - costs - have increased beyond those earlier eras when even a modicum of organisation and talent tangential to professionalism could yield results. And in the case of Italy, there are plenty of people who make the argument they're barely above Tier 2, depending on the weather or their mood.

    Reads like you're trying to "blame" Tier 2 for their own situations? Weird, but it's way more complicated than that IMO. I can't find the article but it was speaking to folks about Romanian rugby in light of their terrible WC showing: the basic thrust was that while yes, ostensibly Romania had a "professional" league, it only meant the players were being paid to play rugby - not that it was a career, or automatically conferred a greater degree of ability or training. And in a country like Spain or Portugal where Soccer is the dominant sport by a distance? I imagine coffers are just as slim there.

    Post edited by pixelburp on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,186 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    Because the rugby championship and 6 nations tier 1 countries have all the money and all the political power to enact change. i really didnt think that needed to be spelt out....


    Georgia/Spain/Portugal and any others were being ignored likeq they always were.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    What are they supposed to do? Hold the Irish rugby team at gunpoint until they agree to play a match?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,867 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Is that how NZ got the Irish tour last year?

    Regarding the whole T2 blaming etc I'd argue the T2 nations simply weren't interested in rugby up until recently when the money became good, meaning they want a slice of the pie without contributing to the ingredients to use baking terms



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭ScissorPaperRock


    I think you should reconsider that argument. Fiji, Samoa, Tonga weren't interested in rugby until recently? They haven't contributed to the sport?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,867 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    No, not at all, those teams were perfectly happy to contribute to New Zealand's national team for many a year and then question why they're not highly regarded once professionalism rolls around



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,186 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    You are just showing a complete lack of knowledge of ruqby beyond a tiny number of countries.

    And were these countries happy? Think swiwi, yeah right and the other kiwis here could give a better response on this.

    But you are talking abosolute nonsenseq.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    No, because they don't need to because NZ willingly and happily play matches against Ireland.

    The issue is not that the T2 nations haven't tried, they are constantly screaming out for matches. The T1 nations REFUSE TO PLAY THEM



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,867 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    And they refuse to play them even when Tier 2 nations offer the same financial incentives as the Tier 1 nations do?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    And from whence is this money supposed to come from to match T1? Are you aware of nations having put up the cash then refused? Like I said, you're determined to blame T2, and now pinning them as gold diggers? It's only their fault it seems, Bill Beaumont blameless in all this.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭ScissorPaperRock


    I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're being deliberately obtuse here.

    They obviously, simply, don't have the financial resources that T1 nations do. This is the very reason T1 nations have been able take advantage of their talent for generations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,867 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Financial resources like the wealthy nation of South Africa? Lack of financial resources like Spain?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭ScissorPaperRock


    We were talking about Fiji, Samoa, and Tonga, where the national GDPs are around $4.3b, $840m, and $470m, respectively, and GDPs per capita are $7,000, $4,600, and $3,800. You look at the economic capacity of these countries, and at the fact they produce rugby talent that is recognised as being among the best in the major professional rugby competitions, and come to the conclusion that they don't put financially attractive offers on the table for T1 countries because of... lack of interest?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Rugby governing bodies are not, in fact, government agencies.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    How much of Spain's financial and economic clout is available to Spanish rugby? If you know something we don't them give the evidence because to all else it's self-evident rugby in Spain does not have access to deep pockets. Nor are rugby unions public sector agencies. IIRC FC Barcelona doesn't have a rugby team.

    By your logic the USA should reign supreme in rugby cos their economy is the largest in the world. They're not even close. While precisely how much clout does Fiji, Georgia, Uruguay have?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    IIRC FC Barcelona doesn't have a rugby team.

    They actually do. But it is invested in much as you would expect and it doesn't aid the Spanish rugby union to attract T1 tests (of which they have played about 8 or 9 total in their history, 5 of which were against Argentina).



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,186 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    Barcelona FC does have a ruqby club as part of its sports clubs. Ive coached teams against some of their underage teams on tour here.

    But yeah Spanish rugby doesnt have great access to deep pockets...



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Ah, guessed wrong, even after a cursory Google - though that alone probably hints at rugby's importance at Barcelona. But yeah, this subject is going around and around in ever increasingly baffling twists of logic.

    T2: it's all your fault for being gold diggers for wanting a degree of parity, but also for not pressing the button marked "leverage your nation's wealth". Weird segue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,172 ✭✭✭OldRio


    Are you honestly being serious in this discussion or are you doing something else? I'm honestly not sure. Nobody can be that..........



  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 11,922 Mod ✭✭✭✭icdg


    The RWC is also getting a new corporate identity, starting with the the 2025 women’s tournament, a rugby ball with the letters “RWC”.

    Never quite sure why they abandoned the classic blue and green ball logo (lasted essentially unchanged from 1987-2015) in the first place or why they’re dumping its replacement after only two tournaments.

    https://www.world.rugby/news/887975/new-visual-identity-revealed-as-rugby-world-cup-embraces-future-and-rugbys-unique-energy#:~:text=The%20new%20Rugby%20World%20Cup,and%20legacy%20of%20the%20game.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    It is a weird global phenomenon of simplifying logos and basically removing any style to them. It is horrendous.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 944 ✭✭✭tgdaly


    There's a lot I don't understand about it, like they said there'll be relegation starting in 2030, but then I also heard that the 6n and rugby championship teams can't be relegated. So does that mean only Fiji and Japan can be relegated? And only if one of them finishes last?


    Also I read SANZAAR get to pick the other 2 teams in it. I'm not convinced that it's not going to be fixed for USA to be in it, the last thing World Rugby will want is for USA not to be competitive in their own World Cup, they aren't going to get that in division 2



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,899 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    Can anyone point to anything official describing the relegation and promotion? I cant find anything other than differing interpretations in some posts here

    the idea that only japan and Fiji can be relegated presumably means they will be relegated in the first season (2030) and replaced by top 2 teams in division two - then those same two teams will be relegated the following year as they are the only ones can be

    this makes no sense

    alternatively only one is relegated but the same nonsensical logic would apply - regardless of where they finish at least one gets relegated??



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,518 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    They have released absolutely no relevant details so far, basically nothing beyond the concept of the competition.

    Ideally they shouldn't have announced it until all that had been sorted, with realms of powerpoints, PDFs and spreadsheets to answer all these questions. Perhaps it wouldn't have been possible to prevent (the delegates who voted either way were always likely to leak) but even some sort of timetable of when there'll be an official structure would have been helpful and reduced the criticism.



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