Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

If it made zero difference, 45 countries would not have abstained. Do the countries who abstained feel indifferent to what's going on?

It wasn't a resolution about hostages, I've no clue why you brought hostages up.

If you were a palestinian would you not be shouting for blood? I know I would.

Who ,according to you are the "Zionists" in Israel?

Are there Israelis who are not "Zionists"?

Who are they?

Why are Israelis "supposed to be enlightened Democrats"?

According to whom?

Every one of us would be utterly enraged if we were directly affected by an occupying army pulverising our families and friends

And every one of us would be devastated if hundreds of our kin, innocents, were killed in a surprise, indiscriminate, attack.

Emotions on both sides are understandably heightened. Leaders should be thinking about the consequences of acting irrationally on those emotions.

You are kidding right, It spreads hate, fear and inducing for further killings to happen. There needs to be calm people, smart people to address the highly volatile situation. We have saw today Israel opened the door for Hamas and they shut it firmly in there face.

Or they don't trust the other and neither will take the first (foolish)step.

Hamas should not be in the position it is in to make any demands at all.

Israel's hands are not innocent either but they have the backing of the world community since their messy establishment in 1947 and are morally justified in defending their position on that basis.

OK I just assumed a Zionist was someone who accepted the validity of the state of Israel.(So I thought all Israelis had to be Zionists-were all the founders "Zionists?)

Well are they or aren't they?

You imply they are not.Which part are they not ;enlightened or democratic?

Are they an unenlightened democracy ?

An enlightened kind of non democracy?

An unenlightened dictatorship?

They had it in 1947 and since then have had to fight wars of aggression from their Arab neighbours and a campaign of terrorism by the PLO and Hamas.

To survive they had to win those wars and defend their citizens against the barbaric terrorism perpetrated by the Palestinian terror groups at various times.

At this present juncture they are fairly justified in thinking that if they do not end the threat from Hamas there will be attacks on them which bring to mind previous disasters such as in WW2.

I am not trying to put the blame on one side and feel the input from the religious section of the Israeli population serves nobody's interest but their own misguided one(I would equate them with Hamas-they would be equally ruthless if they had the power)

Not sure why you are quoting me there or what you are responding to.

Who assumes that?

Isn't it normally accepted that those beliefs are greatly influenced by family ,culture and circumstance ?

"Are there Israelis who are not "Zionists"? Who are they?"

Your question seemingly implied Israelis were born died-in-the-whool as Zionists.

How many lives would be lost if Israel is defeated?

Sure support for Israel's policies may have diminished (hard to say in the middle of all this) but has support for its right to exist diminished practically or on an ethical basis?

Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel and (if I understand correctly) the slaughtering of all Jews.

And this is the thing.

The idea of Hamas coming to the table in good faith is like giving credence to the idea of ISIS coming to the table.

That doesn't excuse what Israel is doing, but a bit of realism is needed.

Hamas is an utter cancer in the exact same way ISIS is, hard to expect Israel to negotiate with a fundamentalist, barbarian organisation that belives in Israel being wiped off the map and jews driven into the sea, not to mention their stance on women, LGBT, virtually everything we consider base level progressive in the west.

We're talking about a fundamentalist, hardcore, Jihadi group. That is the Government of Gaza.

That's the big thing that people seem to dance around. Hamas is the Government of Gaza, the democratically elected Government. Yeah, I get they haven't held elections since, but polls show strong support, and the PA hasn't held elections in the West Bank precisely because Hamas could take power there as well, right now, in 2023. So all the talk of "But current day Palestinians didn't vote for them".

A lot of them did. A lot of them that didn't vote for Hamas then, would inevitably vote Hamas now, both in Gaza and the West Bank. Hence no elections in the West Bank either.

It was a Government that attacked Israel a few weekends ago, not some fringe underground resistance with limited public support.

I don't think too many people here were urging the US to sit down with ISIS to spare the civilians of Iraq, Syria, etc. Why didn't that happen? Because people took the stance that ISIS was an evil that had to be destroyed.

I'm not for a second saying that it's OK for civilians in Gaza to be dying at the rate they're dying but how would anyone suggest Hamas be dealt with.

That's besides the fact that Israel is grabbing land in the West Bank and everything else. I understand and accept that. But how would anyone proposed that Israel deal with Hamas specifically.

No matter what people try and make it out to be, it is, has never been, and unfortunately for a long time won't be black and white.

It's an extremely difficult situation with no real answers. That doesn't make anyone, or any actions, justifiable or right, but the idea that there's a simple solution, or that it boils down to Israel simply backing off, are not realistic.

That would save lives in the very short term but not longer term.

PA has already said they won't take control of Gaza if Hamas is deposed by IDF. So....what?

Complete nightmare. Anyone trying to make out that it's some simple thing if only Israel would stop being the baddies are kidding themselves.

I would like to believe that Israel cannot be defeated (I am not talking about this occasion but in the medium or longer period into the future).

However this may or may not be how it is viewed from their eyes

If they do fear defeat then that would change their calculus obviously.

Do you think they may fear defeat at some point?(I have heard this sentiment expressed)

Hamas can't be reasoned with, I agree with you it's a cancer like ISIS. But the US didn't kill 7000 civilians in their battle with ISIS, it was a fraction of that.

Maybe, just maybe Israel is acting out of revenge and don't care about collateral damage?

IDF spokesman on Sky News the other day didn't even refute the 700+ killed civilians in the past 24 hours. He was also asked what % of those killed were Hamas terrorists.... he refused to answer.

Even Russia while bombing civilian targets claiming there's Nazis or military targets give figures (propaganda, but figures at least)

I guess the IDF can't tell how many terrorists were waiting for the bread to bake in Gaza?

I don't disagree with any of that. I'm sure the strikes have dealt minimal damage to Hamas as a literal, on the ground, fighting force, though they are without doubt crippling their abilities overall.

But yes I would fully agree that the majority of casulties are civilian and there's no real justification for that no matter what side of the debate you're coming from.

But the point remains - what does Israel do to deal with Hamas?

If they never bombed Gaza in the first place and went in with a ground invasion the civilian casulties would be even worse. You're talking Stalingrad all over again.

There's no ideal solution to this. People will talk about peace talks, two-state solution, and the rest as if it's some simple solution that Israel won't see sense on - and ultimately that's entirely what should be the end-game. But in the here and now, not very realistic with Hamas remaining in control of Gaza.