Why we might have a de facto form of euthanasia in Ireland.

realitykeeper · 27-10-2023 6:59pm #1

My gripe with the HSE is that they do not provide the newest, best and most effective medication, required to maximise the chances of survival for cancer patients for example. Why? Because all the money goes on paying grotesque salaries to hospital consultants who do nothing to earn it. Hospital consultants only want to treat their private clients. Why treat public patients when the public money goes into their bank accounts in any case? This is precisely the reason PRSI contributions should be voluntary.

But on the subject of cancer patients, how do they treat them? With an outdated and barbarous treatment known as chemotherapy. This was first used in the fifties after it was realized that the chemical weapon nitrogen mustard gas had an effect on white blood cells. Needless to say it`s effectiveness is limited to say the least and that is to say nothing of the side effects! Nowadays there are highly effective treatments which target cancer cells instead of poisoning the entire patient, as is the case with chemotherapy. But, sadly Irish consultants get to pocket the part of the HSE budget that could be used to buy those treatments.

And, it is not just the cheapskate treatments but the enthusiastic use of morphine which (I suspect) is being used to put people down like a family pet, years before their time. When my grandfather died of lung cancer in the eighties, his coffin was light. But, when my uncle (who also had lung cancer) died in more recent times, it was (I suspect) not the cancer that killed him but a morphine overdose. No wonder his coffin was so heavy. Palliative care as I understand it, involves giving patients higher and higher doses of morphine until it kills them. A family member of mine died recently. He had severe health issues but he did not have a terminal illness. So thankfully he did not need morphine, so they couldn`t put him down. But then, about a week before he died, they decided to do an operation (the necessity of which seems dubious to me) but after the operation, my family member naturally required morphine for the pain and then lo and behold, he was dead. How convenient for them. To be fair to the HSE, my brother was not treated in Ireland but in another western country with a similar health service.

But how could a presumably normal person like a hospital consultant or indeed a person acting on his instruction perform such an act? What has made or perhaps broken them in this way? Are the long hours and low pay endured by junior doctors and nurses designed to undermine their humanity? Is it to break their will? Is it to make them sell their souls and become hospital consultants?

Do we already have a non voluntary form of euthanasia in this country?

Count Dracula · 28-10-2023 6:08am

I think it is a common enough conception that cancer is seen by elitists as a predetermined natural cycle of curbing population globally.

It is why they allow you to purchase dry corn snacks, and eat them in a bowl with milk and sugar and delude yourself into ignoring the detrimental impact of digesting processed, chemically preserved corn snacks and how they are a synthetic form of nutrition, which the human body has not been asked to deal with in the last 888 generations.

They are banning Vapes because people stopped smoking and it was costing a fortune in dead revenue for the state. They reckon people might start spending 17 phucking euros a packet on them. Worse than airport whiskey if you ask me.

Ireland gets the best cancer treatment on the planet op. You are barking worse than a terrified chihuahua puppy, who has been ignored by his owners all weekend because they couldn't find a space at the pet sanctuary, whilst they hovered off to Milan to buy more expensive garb they have failed to convince anyone they deem important to be impressed by. Just read it again if you don't understand it, it makes more sense than ranting about the Irish health service, no one is listening to that either?

Go down to Soweto and try and get your head around children born with AIDS inherited from their grandparents......

28-10-2023 6:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058319916/why-we-might-have-a-de-facto-form-of-euthanasia-in-ireland

Life expectancy in Ireland has increased from 71 in 1973, to 77 in 2003, to 82 in 2023.

Which begs the question, if people in Ireland are living longer than ever before, are the Irish Government/HSE grossly incompetent in their attempts to euthanise the population?

Bricriu · 28-10-2023 6:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058319916/why-we-might-have-a-de-facto-form-of-euthanasia-in-ireland

We do have hospital-administered Euthanasia in Ireland; I've seen it carried out in front of my eyes, over a period, on a close relative in a Dublin hospital. First the hospital stopped the tube-fed nutrients, then they stopped all liquid. Cruel and heartless. I was too grief-stricken to question it.

As citizens, we were never asked whether we wanted Euthanasia. No referendum; it is totally undemocratic.

Am I surprised? NO!

Ireland is a basket-case of gombeen men and women and sheep who accept everything their 'betters' dole out to them, without thinking or questioning.

And even in referenda, it the sheep vote the 'wrong way', the politicians hold another referendum so that the voters can get it 'right' the second time.

Count Dracula · 28-10-2023 6:44am

You forgot to mention it is infested with cranks and whingers...

Just saying.

realitykeeper · 28-10-2023 9:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121293177#Comment_121293177

Borrowing 200 billion euro since 2008 enables a government to do a lot of stuff but not necessarily competently. Of course, people living longer is another reason we might have de-facto euthanasia in this country.

28-10-2023 9:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121293451#Comment_121293451

State sponsored assassination of elderly?

Do you wear the tinfoil hat all the time, or just indoors?

Calahonda52 · 28-10-2023 9:19am

OP: My gripe with the HSE is that they do not provide the newest, best and most effective medication, required to maximise the chances of survival for cancer patients for example.

My gripe with HSE is that they waste a horrific amount of money on drugs to extend lives that should be allowed end naturally, the drug companies profit from it.

eg one offering is 15,000 euro per month to maybe extend the life by 6 months, with increasing deterioration of QOL

AndrewJRenko · 28-10-2023 9:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058319916/why-we-might-have-a-de-facto-form-of-euthanasia-in-ireland

Which particular medications are the HSE not providing please?

28-10-2023 9:47am

I have big criticism of HSE and private health services alike for varying reasons, but I find the younger generation of doctors to be amazingly compassionate, if not always trained to handle patients who’ve had extensive surgery. I am meeting more and more companionate & respectful younger consultants these times too, and they are way more inclined to listen that doctors of a previous generation.

However I have been told by sone medics recently that working in the public health service they have their hands tied behind their backs, and work under restrictions of false economies, eg I was afforded a recent hospital admission but not a necessary scan as requested by the admitting doctor. I discharged myself and got it in a private hospital, with a quick diagnosis and treatment.

The sequence of events was unfortunate but nobody was actively conspiring to cause them. Started out with incidental mri appearance of cervix at MS clinic, referral to gynae with consequent perforation of uterus as doctors were unfamiliar with altered anatomy in a woman with full colectomy, followed by peritonitis, finally followed by peptic ulceration which is resolving with correct treatment from private hospital setting.

The public hospital reviewed me the other day and were horrified to learn full train of events. Certainly the treating doctors did not in any way conspire that this should have happened, but lack of training, and oversight of how things go at a level of senior management certainly was.

silliussoddius · 28-10-2023 2:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121293549#Comment_121293549

Adrenochrome.

AndrewJRenko · 28-10-2023 4:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121294218#Comment_121294218

This stuff? Is it a legitimate cancer treatment?

https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-qanon-became-obsessed-with-adrenochrome-an-imaginary-drug-hollywood-is-harvesting-from-kids

Geuze · 28-10-2023 5:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058319916/why-we-might-have-a-de-facto-form-of-euthanasia-in-ireland

Please note that PRSI contributions are used to finance social insurance benefits, not healthcare.

With two exceptions: dental and optical benefits.

Healthcare is financed by general taxes.

witchgirl26 · 31-10-2023 9:38am

OP my dad died of cancer - and you're correct in that the morphine is increased as time goes on. This is pain management though. The more pain a patient is in, the more morphine is given to stop them being in agonising pain. So less morphine means a lot more pain. Personally I was glad my dad was not in screaming agony because of not giving him something to help with his pain. Also the weight of a person at death totally depends on the weight they were when the illness started. I have had numerous relatives pass from cancer. Those who fought it for a long time (over a year or more) were lighter as the cancer itself & treatment does impact appetite. Those who had it less than a year before passing were not much different in weight.

Look I agree that it's a probably a de facto form of euthanasia how it's done but it's humane. Surely that's the most important thing. My dad had a dignified passing that would have been remarkably less so was it not for morphine. Oh & they don't just whack up the dosage if you're on palliative care, they manage the pain & give the best end of life care you can have.

And yes the HSE is bloated at the middle levels - that's not a conspiracy, that's a known fact.

ohnonotgmail · 01-11-2023 11:56am

But, when my uncle (who also had lung cancer) died in more recent times, it was (I suspect) not the cancer that killed him but a morphine overdose. No wonder his coffin was so heavy.

How does the use of morphine make a coffin heavy?

MrMusician18 · 01-11-2023 12:02pm

Non voluntary euthanasia? are you saying the State is murdering the sick and elderly?

Now, I have my gripes with how the country is run for sure, but that's definitely pushing it.

realitykeeper · 06-11-2023 7:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121309881#Comment_121309881

Obviously if the man was put down before he had a chance to die of cancer, that would explain why his coffin was heavier than a coffin containing the remains of a man who did die of cancer. Isn't that what palliative care is, increasing the morphine dose until it kills the patient?

06-11-2023 7:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333872#Comment_121333872

I think you may be having a laugh, but in case you are serious (you couldn’t be, no one could be that delusional), there are at leastthree questions, probably many, many more.

If pain meds like morphine are denied to terminal/palliative care patients for relief, do you want patients to suffer as a result?
What is your perceived link between morphine administration and huge weight gain?
Have you reported your allegations of the systematic murder of the sick and elderly by the State to either the Gardai or a journalist?

ohnonotgmail · 06-11-2023 11:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333872#Comment_121333872

Even for you this is particularly stupid.

witchgirl26 · 07-11-2023 10:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333872#Comment_121333872

OP did you want him to die in agony from the pain of the cancer? Or waste away to nothing because his appetite was gone? Nobody is just od'ing people in palliative care the minute they get put on that care path. And no, palliative care is not just about morphine. It's about ensuring that someone who has a terminal illness has their pain levels managed to allow them to enjoy the end of their life as much as possible. My dad was in palliative care for 10 months & morphine as a pain killer only came into it during the last month of his life. Have you ever been in a hospice? That is palliative care. People are doing painting, flower arranging etc. Nobody is being "put down" as soon as they go on palliative care paths. All that palliative care path means is that there will be no further significant medical interventions to save the persons life as they are terminal. And a patient has to agree to go on a palliative care path.

Hoop66 · 08-11-2023 11:17am

I think we can agree that OP's understanding of illness and medical procedure is woefully lacking and leave it at that.

ohnonotgmail · 08-11-2023 11:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121340781#Comment_121340781

oh it isn't just restricted to illness and medical procedure.

realitykeeper · 10-11-2023 4:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121336418#Comment_121336418

I remember the Uncle who was put down saying "I hope they don`t have me on the pathway." He had worked in healthcare himself so he knew how it went. He died about three weeks later. He seemed grand the day before he died. Then we got a call from the hospital saying he`d be dying today, so we all went in to see him. The nurse said just wait here a minute, he isn`t dying yet. She went in and came out and said "Okay, he is dying now." So we the family went in and he died. So maybe he had just gotten the lethal jab. Just saying. Sure he faded away nice and peaceful like but I reckon he got put down.

Tork · 10-11-2023 4:11pm

So why didn't you go to the guards? Sounds like murder when you tell it like this.

realitykeeper · 10-11-2023 4:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121351755#Comment_121351755

They`d have laughed us out the door.

o1s1n · 10-11-2023 4:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121351734#Comment_121351734

I always find it amazing how laypeople who know nothing about medicine beyond maybe watching some episodes of ER reckon they have the whole system 'worked out'.

realitykeeper · 10-11-2023 4:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121351791#Comment_121351791

You are right. It is probably even more corrupt and incompetent than we think.

ohnonotgmail · 10-11-2023 6:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121351783#Comment_121351783

And rightly so.

witchgirl26 · 13-11-2023 4:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121351734#Comment_121351734

Yeah I don't buy that at all. My dad was hoping he wasn't going to end on palliative care but he did. Coz that happens when cancer is terminal. I doubt the hospital said "he'll be dying today". It was probably more along the lines of "he might not last the day". We had 4 of those when we were in hospital with my dad & pretty much every night during his final week. Or that they said "he isn't dying yet" or "he's dying now". Realistically probably it was "we're not ready for you yet" and "ok you can go in now". If you think he got a lethal jab that would be something you should have reported at the time to the Gardai coz I'm pretty sure they & the HSE would want to know if people were going around giving lethal injections to those in hospital.

You reckon? Without any actual evidence or indications or anything you reckon he was put down? How's the being an armchair expert working out for you?

Hannibal_Smith · 13-11-2023 5:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121351734#Comment_121351734

There are no lethal jabs. Active dying is so unpredictable no one can know when it'll actually happen. There are bodily signs alright that mark each stage, but the length of time each stage takes can differ. The work that palliative teams do and the care they take is absolutely magnificent and to suggest that they are actively killing people is insulting to them tbh.

I'm so sorry for your loss and it is only natural to be angry at the loss of some one close to you, but to say they were murdered is a stretch.

Dial Hard · 13-11-2023 5:29pm

Isn't the whole point of palliative care that it's an alternative to assisted dying? As in, its entire purpose is to keep people as comfortable as possible until they die naturally rather than having them choose assisted dying (in jurisdictions where that's an option), no?

realitykeeper · 16-11-2023 11:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121363854#Comment_121363854

"we`re not ready for you yet"

I like that. No doubt they`d have to fill the syringe, expel the air, flick the needle and to the sound of sinister music, administer the "pain relief."

Then they`d be ready.

realitykeeper · 16-11-2023 11:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121293164#Comment_121293164

You sound like a placid old labrador on the vets bench, about to be euthanized. I am actually a conformist but I expect all authorty to be exemplary. But, when authority becomes diabolical, it is imperative that one does not diverge from one`s own moral trajectory to suit the powers at large. If I have cancer, I want the best and most advanced medical treatment money can by, not a contemptuous hospital consultant on 600,000 euro per year.

Instead, give me a junior doctor, double his pay from 54,000 to 110,000 euro and then give me a course of medicine to the value of 190,000 euro and return the 300,000 left over to the tax payer.

16-11-2023 3:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121374914#Comment_121374914

Out of interest, have you looked up the effects of steroids/chemotherapy/reduced mobility on weight gain in oncology patients?

Just asking.

realitykeeper · 16-11-2023 6:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121376191#Comment_121376191

Just out of curiosity, why are you asking? Isn`t it obvious I am not impressed with cheapskate treatment like chemotherapy? I favour the best modern treatment that targets the cancer instead of poisoning the patient. No 600,000 euro consultants, just medicine that works.

190k is enough for a course of modern, effective medication, although I am sure even better treatments are available for 400k. That by the way is affordable too if only the HSE would sack the consultants and double the pay given to the junior doctors. How much is a course of nitric mustard gas, the stuff they used on the frontline during WW one? Probably a lot less than 190k.

16-11-2023 6:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121376978#Comment_121376978

I’m wondering why you are linking morphine/palliative care to the weight of the coffin.

realitykeeper · 16-11-2023 6:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377054#Comment_121377054

So you don`t want to talk about chemotherapy vs proper medication after all?

16-11-2023 7:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377064#Comment_121377064

What is proper medication?

realitykeeper · 16-11-2023 7:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377116#Comment_121377116

Well proper medication is not the stuff you find in chemical weapons, like mustard gas. Cancer treatments which have been approved by the EMA/FDA in the past fifteen years, which have been shown to be highly effective in phase III trials and have since become available as manufactured products are the sort of thing the HSE needs to buy and administer to cancer patients in this country.

16-11-2023 7:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377164#Comment_121377164

What medications exactly do you want inexperienced, unguided junior doctors putting in your body to try and stem the spread of metastases?

Hannibal_Smith · 16-11-2023 8:16pm

@realitykeeper this is the Conspiracy Theories Forum. As you just seem to be using it to rant about the health care system, this forum is not the correct place for this thread, so I'm going to close it there.

HS

Why we might have a de facto form of euthanasia in Ireland.

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