Irish Property Market chat II - *read mod note post #1 before posting*

You knew by the rent charged and word of mouth from other renters, and mostly avoiding lettings from EA. Some LL's were very open that this was there strategy

Falling rates environment meant landlords outgoings were falling also

Having a house with someone else paying the mortgage was the path to wealth in the 90's noughties for many

We just let get out of hand

But he welcomes debate! Even if these Sherlock deduction can be done it is only on some properties IF others are willing to give the information AND telling the truth. What we have here is the Yogi bear philosophy of being smarter than the average. Boo-Boo was actually the smart one

Having rented all through the recession along with my entire generational cohort, the notion of these supposed renters laughing it up at the expense of the poor long-suffering landlords is sheer self-justifying delusion.

BOI hiking variable rate by 0.25%. Are they playing catch up or are they ahead of the others?

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2023/1027/1413304-bank-of-ireland-mortgage-rates/

Its laughable honestly, looking back on previous houses and the state of them. I spent 3 years in a grungy apartment in the west that used to be student accommodation. I paid €550 per month they're now €1400 today on daft which is higher than better quality houses and flats in the same town. Best of luck is all I can say to them, clearly someone is a bit over leveraged and feeling the pinch on the other end.

No self pity there then.

If you want rents to come down, you need more LLs, if more LLs are to enter the market, you either need to entice them or at a minimum stop them from leaving. Alternatively, leave to the big investors who run it like any business should be run, for profit. No use whinging about apathetic LLs, there is apathy on both sides.

Do you not see the irony in your post?

Renting is a business as you rightly highlight but if you rig the market (this is the key phrase) then the participants will react accordingly. If you want a market then let it be a functioning market. Don't force it to be something it's not.

You know have a situation where the govt wants to legislate what a private individual does with their own private asset (a rental property).

It can that is exactly what a sole trader is. The extent of involvement by The State is to ensure properties meet health and safety regulations.

Setting a price that the market can bare is not acting illegally it letting the market find its equilibrium of supply and demand.

Economics 101 if supernormal profits are earned new suppliers are attracted to the market thereby increasing supply which has the effect of reducing price. This is how a free market works.

Other more mature rental sectors in other countries have supply that is a closer match to demand. More importantly they have a more balanced relationship with both parties in the lease. Sadly this is not the case in the Irish rental market.

It's more than health and safety requirements it's to enforce continued improvements. Not just in housing but it seems a large proportion of the country would let things go to wreck and ruin to squeeze a small amount out and the government cannot allow that to happen. Fixing prices I disagree with but setting minimum standards I do agree with.

As for your point on attracting new players to reduce the market didn't that happen with REITS but prices still increased?

Min standards already exist. Attracting new entrants in large numbers ensures no one supplier or small number of suppliers will control the market. But what has happened is small landlords are being driven out of the market because of continued one sided legislation etc.

Everybody wanted professional landlords which is exactly what is happening in the form of the REITs. How is that working out?

I would argue they dont really exist having rented several places that fall far short of them. And even the existing standards are far too low already.

Unfortunately I think in this debate we both have different views of what we want the end result to be and as such won't agree on it. In my own view the one sidedness of the recent legislation you mention is there to protect people with the side effect that some take wild advantage of it, but that doesn't make it wrong. It's unfortunate that some have to leave the market but the alternative is even more terrible. In my job I see the social cost that the lack of housing has caused and it's shocking already.

His point sounds good to me, as a renter back then. I had a variety, some out and out gougers, others just happy to let the property cover costs or make a small profit. In the long run, neither sort was soft-hearted when time came to throw you out.

Luckily I managed to get out of that particular rat-race in the end. Dublin landlords are seriously the worst, so many of them still act as though it was 1913..

We have been at full employment for a while, so any small contraction in GDP due to multinationals exporting less is not the end of the world, nor is it going to materially impact house prices.

There is still far too much pent up demand and sfa supply

We are unique in that any mortgages that fall into arrears or non-payment as a result of rate hikes, these cant be repossessed.

So the only option left to the banks is to raise their rates further, so that the "performing" mortgage holders pay even more to cover losses made on those in arrears.

No other country would see this happen

Latest CSO visualisation shows a staggering 140 k migration. In such a market I could rent out my coal shed to some unfortunate. By way of example a nearby house of 65 m2 has just been rented out to six people. Bunk beds have gone into the downstairs room. The Ponzi scheme rolls on.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-pme/populationandmigrationestimatesapril2023/