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Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

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    #12332
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,446 ✭✭✭McGiver


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297611#Comment_121297611

    I don't think he will, he's politically dead and there's no support for this I Israel outside of the radical camp (10%). But I'm saying that Fatah secretly wish so.

    I can't see how Fatah/WB and Gaza can work under one Palestinian banner ever again. These events totally derailed any sort of peaceful resolution for the WB as well.

    As for Gaza, it cannot be solved.



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    #12333
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,924 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297663#Comment_121297663

    Nor would I even try. I don't control who attends or doesn't attend. Perhaps. just perhaps the extent and sheer brutality of what is happening and the faces of the terrified children and the little bodies lying on the streets or being carried at speed by grief stricken parents to over-crowded and resourceless hospitals that look like slaughter houses has had more impact on the marchers.



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    #12334
    Snooker Loopy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭Snooker Loopy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297659#Comment_121297659

    Absolute bullshit. The consequences for politicians of speaking out against Israeli atrocities in the west are the end of your career, being branded as anti-Semitic, as basically a Holocaust denier. The Israel lobby is fearsome and politicians in the west are petrified of falling foul of it.

    Look at Israel's reaction to the tepid attempt to add some context by the UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres. Israel laughably accused him of "blood libel" and demand his resignation. This is an insane reaction.

    Israel uses the Holocaust as the ultimate moral blackmail to ensure the silence, complicity and active support of the west for its atrocities. It is grotesque.

    What you are saying is "Israelis are like us - therefore we should support Israel in whatever it does." This is the same narrative that Wix used - the narrative that we are civilised, they are animals - and it's racist as hell.



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    #12335
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,446 ✭✭✭McGiver


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297650#Comment_121297650

    But this. But that. If you have to say but, you've no argument. Whataboutism fest.

    In fact, it's Hamas, Hesbollah and Assad who are allies of Russia and use its ruthless tactics and propaganda. Not Israel. Your analogy with Russia is a bad joke and completely wrong. There's nothing in common between Israel and Russia.

    There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Ukraine didn't attack Russia militarily. Russia annexed large parts of Ukraine, another sovereign state, and wages war on it for 2 years.

    Hamas are actual Nazis who wish Israel to disappear from the map, all Jews to die and Israel cease to exist. They murdered thousands civilians, kidnapped hundreds, invaded another sovereign state militarily. Israel is not invading a sovereign state (as there's no state), is not annexing any territory. Israel is responding to attack on its sovereign territory.

    What the hell are you comparing here?



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    #12336
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,446 ✭✭✭McGiver


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297616#Comment_121297616

    What are Israel supposed to do? Thank Hamas? Ask them to come for a coffee and falafel and negotiate? Negotiate what?

    Terrorists only understand force nothing else. Hamas will not ever negotiate with Israel, they don't don't accept Israel as a sovereign state, don't want it to exist at all, they don't want peace, their existence is based in endless war with Israel. They've overplayed their hand and the destruction of Gaza is of their making.



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    #12337
    DangerMouse27
    Registered Users Posts: 608 ✭✭✭DangerMouse27


    Just for perspective, can you thus far list the politicians etc who have had their careers ended?

    Your the only one banging on about the Holocaust in this context. Not everyone is Amy Schumer.

    The OP is merely pointing out the accurate and truism that Israel is very aligned to Europe.



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    #12338
    brickster69
    Registered Users Posts: 5,632 ✭✭✭brickster69


    Reported by sky news also

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/29/palestinians-break-into-gaza-un-aid-warehouses-in-a-sign-of-desperation


    “The earth is littered with the ruins of empires that believed they were eternal.”

    - Camille Paglia



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    #12339
    Snooker Loopy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭Snooker Loopy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297740#Comment_121297740

    The question is - what politicians in real positions of power in the west have ever genuinely spoken out in a meaningful way against Israel's atrocities and occupation?

    Riddle me this. Viktor Orban is a genuine anti-Semite. But he's pro-Israel. Israel loves him. Trump is a genuine anti-Semite. But he's fanatically pro-Israel. Israel loves him.

    Israel doesn't really care about anti-Semitism. It only cares about interests and people aligning with their interests.



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    #12340
    tesla_newbie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭tesla_newbie


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297696#Comment_121297696

    I’m surprised Irish people aren’t a little bit concerned about how our overwhelming support for the Palestinians is being perceived in America?

    israeli influence in Washington dwarfs that of the Irish lobby, American corporations are near unconditionally aligned with Israel, we could see action against us in due course

    Im referring to withdrawal of investment etc , we are extremely dependent on the mood of big companies and those companies are intertwined with Wall Street mood



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    #12341
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,446 ✭✭✭McGiver


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297733#Comment_121297733

    I don't support that. I never said that. I categorically reject attacking civilians. The small issue is that it's simply unavoidable in Gaza. And Hamas is consciously using this as a tactic. That's the reality. I believe all countries pro-Israel including are calling for avoiding civilian deaths. All what we can do.

    Israel has to respond and secure their sovereign territory so that its citizens can live in peace free of Hamas thugs killing them. That's all what it is. Entirely Hamas' fault. In fact, this what they wanted and expected. And Hesbollah & Iran are waiting and evaluating if they should attack Israel from the North. In fact, if Israel doesn't respond strongly in Gaza, Hesbollah might attack Israel. That's the reality Israel is operating in. Surrounded by multiple hostile countries and elements. It has to fight literally for survival. Real politik. Beggars aren't choosers. Unlike the 1st world human rights armchair freedom fighters.

    "Destruction of Palestine" - good joke given the history of last 70 years. Like annexation of Gaza by Egypt or the WB by Jordan? If it was for the Arabs there would be no peace treaties, no accords, no PNA, no Palestinian autonomy, and no Palestine!

    Post edited by McGiver on


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    #12342
    DangerMouse27
    Registered Users Posts: 608 ✭✭✭DangerMouse27


    I'd look more to the comments on countries in the region and they have been very vocal. King of Jordan in particular.

    Michael D.

    But I get where you are coming from.



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    #12343
    Snooker Loopy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭Snooker Loopy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297786#Comment_121297786

    All the west has uttered are the blandest of bland platitudes. In reality it has offered total support for Israel butchering civilians.

    Hamas is a problem of Israel's own making. It fostered and encouraged and helped fund Hamas at every opportunity.

    Israel has destroyed and continues to destroy Palestine. Look at what's happening in the West Bank under the cover of the attack on Gaza. Palestinian villagers are being ethnically cleansed off their land.

    https://twitter.com/YehudaShaul/status/1718273191376756973?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1718273194639945734%7Ctwgr%5Efc5f1bf7fe5790157c07eda2bd28be4619f505e9%7Ctwcon%5Es2_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ftfk.thefreekick.com%2Ft%2Fa-new-low-for-israel%2F11873%2F2918




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    #12344
    Snooker Loopy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭Snooker Loopy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297784#Comment_121297784

    Speaking out for what is right is much more important than business.

    Refusal to speak out for what is right because of monetary interests is a total failure of humanity and a total failure of morals.



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    #12345
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 76,290 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    On the basis of assurances given by the posters, makodaly and SafeSurfer threadbans lifted



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    #12346
    DangerMouse27
    Registered Users Posts: 608 ✭✭✭DangerMouse27


    Had to go and have a gawk at what Orban was up to and it's reasonably clear that he has no issue with that Israel does to Palestinians. Who knows why! He's not the most logical in how he goes about things.

    I'd imagine that he hates Jews, Arabs, everyone. He just hates Jews, less. Still hates em.



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    #12347
    Sudden Valley
    Registered Users Posts: 4,088 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297736#Comment_121297736

    It is difficult to destroy a terrorist group purely by force if you dont tackle the underlying reason why the terrorist group was created. Israel can kill the hamas leadership which i have no problem with but killing women and children is just going to recruit for the next terrorist group in gaza.

    You are really showing your bias in the conflict if you can condemn hamas killing civilians but don't condemn Israel doing the same.



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    #12348
    brickster69
    Registered Users Posts: 5,632 ✭✭✭brickster69


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297759#Comment_121297759

    The multi polar world commenced a while ago and one side is greatly outnumbered and knows it. Both sides can destroy each other with weapons but only one side can destroy the other without firing a single shot. This has nothing to do with Gaza, Israel is just another proxy aimed at kicking everything off.

    Unfortunately it looks like one side think they can actually win when they can't ..... again. Europe can solve this easily but unfortunately the people in charge are too far down the rabbit hole now. All they have to do is call for a ceasefire and the Anglo Saxons are totally isolated.

    “The earth is littered with the ruins of empires that believed they were eternal.”

    - Camille Paglia



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    #12349
    tesla_newbie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭tesla_newbie


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297815#Comment_121297815

    I don’t disagree at all, I’m just raising the broader question



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    #12350
    Hey boy
    Registered Users Posts: 812 ✭✭✭Hey boy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297494#Comment_121297494

    From what I have read and seen of it many many are anti-Israel and pro Hamas and none are anti Hamas. I wasn’t there so perhaps there were ‘Hamas Out’ and/or ‘Release Hostages Now’ posters and speakers but I doubt it.

    The pretend babies with blood all over them were a particularly strange choice… Wonder what those individuals meant by that.

    No doubt the remainder were anti-war but that is one of the issues with such a crowd - who is leading it and who joins it.



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    #12351
    Weepsie
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,411 Mod ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297718#Comment_121297718

    Israel has been annexing parts of Palestine for decades... and as already nited have taking more land in the weeks preceding Oct 7 than they had collectively done in the 4 preceding decades.


    Nothing to see here though....



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    #12352
    Hey boy
    Registered Users Posts: 812 ✭✭✭Hey boy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297496#Comment_121297496

    Read up on it - check some of the UK press. Some charming individuals in it.



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    #12353
    amandstu
    Registered Users Posts: 3,582 ✭✭✭amandstu


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297520#Comment_121297520

    Israel was attacked in 1948 and 1967.Had she been defeated there is no doubt she would have been effaced territorialy.


    Should she have given back strategic territories and meekly waited for the next waves of attack?

    Which Arab countries even accept her existing (or previous ) borders?(genuinely asked as there can be information overload on this subject)


    Is she still technically at war with any of them? (all nations have the right to self defence or is Israel not a "nation"?)



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    #12354
    Hey boy
    Registered Users Posts: 812 ✭✭✭Hey boy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297615#Comment_121297615

    Careful now. Any more pointing out hypocrisy or double standards and you will be told this thread is about Gaza and Israel.



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    #12355
    Snooker Loopy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭Snooker Loopy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297865#Comment_121297865

    Believe me when I say you don't want a multi-polar world, because the other prospective "pole" - ie. China, Russia, India, Iran, is a nest of vipers which cares nothing for freedom or humanity or justice. It is an axis of despotism.

    We only have a choice between a world in which that Russia/China/Iran axis, largely backed by India, rules, or a world where the post World War II western order is the pre-eminent power. Those are the two choices. It's **** but it is what it is.

    The post World War II western order, ie. the US, Europe, Australia, Japan, South Korea etc., is clearly the preferable one. But it depends on being moral. It depends on being seen to uphold justice. If it doesn't do that, it collapses. Post World War II decolonisation had to happen because justice demanded it. But too many times, the post World War II western order has only focussed on interests, not justice. It has got involved in insane wars of aggression, coups. Israel/Palestine is the festering sore where interests threaten to undermine the west's moral authority once and for all.

    What Israel has done and is doing is a moral outrage. That what Hamas did on October 7th was a moral outrage doesn't change the fact that Israel has committed moral outrages for decades and is doing so again. Israel/Palestine can not be solved by blunt Israeli force. It can not be solved by occupation. It can not be solved when the west so refuses to act as honest broker.

    This double standard - the enabling of this moral outrage which will inflame the world by its injustice - is what will destroy the west and usher us into an era where the vile despots of Russia, China, Iran and elsewhere cosplay as human rights defenders and "anti-imperialists" while in reality being the most imperialist bastards on the planet, and their agents in the west will rise too, and large sections of western populations will buy their bullshlt.



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    #12356
    Strazdas
    Registered Users Posts: 18,657 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297829#Comment_121297829

    This was pretty much how things panned out during the Troubles. Margaret Thatcher in the early 1980s thought she could somehow 'solve' the conflict by defeating the IRA militarily - when this type of security / military approach was guaranteed to end in abject failure.

    For the conflict to end ultimately, it will involve a huge amount of compromise and concessions on all sides. Bombing the hell out of Gaza and killing thousands of civilians will achieve nothing.



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    #12357
    Wolf359f
    Registered Users Posts: 5,827 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297910#Comment_121297910

    So by and large a pro-Palestine/anti-war/ceasefire march. When a media outlet describes that as an anti-Israel march based on some individuals in it, then you know where their bias lands.



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    #12358
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297633#Comment_121297633

    In this case it just simply true

    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #12359
    Strazdas
    Registered Users Posts: 18,657 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297965#Comment_121297965

    It's really all they to fall back on. Huge pro-Palestinian marches, going against the Sunak government and right wing press narrative.....therefore the only explanation must be that the marchers are anti-Semitic, pro-terrorism, pro-Hamas etc.



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    #12360
    Snooker Loopy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭Snooker Loopy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297965#Comment_121297965

    Protesting in demand of a ceasefire is just. The vast majority of people protesting this weekend are good people. But as I've said before, the pro-Palestine movement has never properly dealt with support for Hamas and genuine anti-Semitism within its ranks. The notion that pro-Palestine protest should be banned or suppressed - and this is an increasingly prevalent view among supporters of Israel - is totalitarian. But yet I also see how pro-Palestine protest is deeply intimidating to Jews outside of Israel, because of that refusal to deal with the minority with appalling views.

    But the pro-Israel side does not deal with the appalling reality of the genocidal rhetoric and actions by Israel. It does not deal with fundamental injustice.

    Neither "side" has dealt with or wants to deal with the vile ideologies or actions which come from their "side". There seems to be a universal rejection of universal humanity.

    Things like this really worry me, they worry me about where humans are heading as a species. All this man wanted was to acknowledge a universal humanity. That you can be revolted by Israel's destruction of Gaza and its people and revolted by the massacres by Hamas. For that he was roundly abused. While online he's being branded by supporters of Israel as a "useful idiot" for terrorism.

    Deeply depressing all round.

    https://twitter.com/heckle_scot/status/1718320455700857310




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    #12361
    mikeoc85
    Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭mikeoc85


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297934#Comment_121297934

    Agree with this.

    I don’t understand how Western leaders don’t see it like this. After 9/11 people backed any action the US deemed necessary. Its different now, the west is completely divided from within. I even find myself half hoping Iran get involved to try and stop the madness in Gaza but I know it’ll make everything so much worse.

    What Hamas have done was sick and barbaric and they need to be brought to justice and eradicated. That doesn’t mean we commit more atrocities in trying to do so. The images since the 7th Oct have kept me awake a night, I could only imagine what it’s like living through it.

    We need peace, war just brings more war and Israel will never be at peace if they continue like this.



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