Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Do you remember what happened between Rabin and Bibi?

That's how far away we are from peaceful de-escalation. Co-existence was never an endgame option for Bibi.

Please, it was me who mentioned international humanitarian law in this thread many times and its main measure, being proportionality. The latter is almost out of the window though when the other party is using human shields and hostages. In other words, in the current Gaza situation, it would be near impossible to convict the IDF of war crimes even if there were many tens of thousands of civilian deaths

I don't know about babies ! While I've no gra for religion I do remember the quote " it's better a man had not lived if he corrupts innocence! As I said , it's selective irish memory that despite all the recent terror attacks there's no outrage , just look at sligo ! A mind poisoned by hate !

Oh, so now we need a conviction before we acknowledge war crimes have happened?

In your eyes no war crimes have happened in Ukraine? Zero convictions etc....

Now, directly firing on a family in a car with a tank... that's not a war crime until they are convicted? Tank vs fleeing car..... how is that proportionate?

It was in his own party's charter for example:

"The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty."

If he has an idea of coexistence it's that Jewish citizens are first class citizens and other citizens are secondary and if there are to be others in coexistence, it is under the eternal rule of Israel.

Now the only 'outrage' I anticipate is 'DYM he wants to genocide 2.3 million people?' No he either doesn't dream of stomaching it or couldn't dream of pulling it off, no they've explicitly called on them to leave instead under threat of force (ie. Ethnic Cleansing).

Otherwise I don't know what exactly you are inferring I am implying.

There are enough independent eyes that they could never get away with 'just bombing everyone' no, that's why the intensified focus on ethnically cleansing them from the north of Gaza at a minimum. Yet, we continue to ask very little of the IDF in terms of evidence on a case by case basis even as they declare hundreds, 450-600+ targets hit a night. To this point: if we're doing all we can to minimize this loss, for each and every one of those 600+ targets a night, we need to ask the Israeli government: "what is your evidence?" Every civilian life lost is terrible, so for every civilian life there should be at the very least: a receipt, showing they were terribly and without a doubt a victim of being a human shield, instead of automatically written off as one as per political contrivance.

It doesn't work like that. The evidence works the other way around. Technically Israel could bomb the bejaysus out of Gaza, killing hundreds of thousands of people, as long as Hamas is there, operating from civilian areas and using civilians / human shields and no war crime would be commited.

Let's hope it won't play out like that, let's hope the Gazans move to the very south in relative safety.

"At whatever cost", We know it is the most densely populated area in the world, you couldn't throw a football in without hitting someone, so you know this, I know this and the IDF know this, but still continue to do double figure airstrikes. That is murder of innocent people, that is collective punishment, that is a war crime. If Hamas were driving around in technicals and the IDF did an airstrike hitting it and the wreckage crashed into a house, killing someone, I would look more favourably on it, as it is an accident, but targeting a house or building knowing that innocent people are adjacent to it or even in said building is murder, no ifs or buts. The IDF are choosing this method, it is premediated. You are saying civilian life lost is terrible but then seeming to say what else can be done, carrying water for the IDF. What should the international community do? Support Israel? Boycott them? Exile them like Russia?

I'm not suggesting that they would be violating a current applicable law of war, I'm just suggesting what the standard of expectation should be raised to if we are to say we're doing everything we can as an international community to minimize innocent civilian casualties. If they want to win a PR war, they ought to be able to show good receipts. The IDF however is historically hostile to being audited or investigated by third parties.

Gazans are entrenched about leaving because Likud etc. have, historically, not shown any propensity for giving Palestinians rights of return, with many refugee camps, from previous wartime breakouts, still unresolved and being hit as targets in this current war.

Unless someone tells him no, Bibi will occupy north Gaza indefinitely.

The United States is emphasizing that Hamas’s move to use Palestinian civilians as human shields in Gaza does not excuse Israel from its responsibility to protect civilians - White House national security adviser Jake Sullivan

Israel still has a responsibility to protect civilians. They can't just bomb the fuvk out of Gaza and say Hamas is there.

Maybe they will say Hamas was in the car that got shot point blank by a tank, maybe you buy that thankfully most people don't.

An you think so far, the IDF are doing that in Gaza?

I just want to give my thoughts on what I have observed on this war between Israel and Gaza.

This war has shown to us how the extreme levels of violence has gone way too far between the two countries. I have seen a news report from CNN that had shown horrific footage of a large black labrador being gunned down to death by Hamas gunmen that were killing innocent people in a kibbutz just after the terrorist attack had occurred at the music festival in Israel. It was a horrible thing to see an attack of that magnitude unfold on TV. I have never thought that the level of violence being inflicted by Hamas at that point was going to bring so much devastation to so many innocent people.

And it doesn't stop there when it comes to children being killed, injured or taken hostage in this conflict. The UN were quoting figures earlier last night to say that 420 children were being killed or injured in Gaza every day. 20 children are held as hostages are out in the West Bank. The UN said that the fate of those innocent children in The West Bank is currently unknown. That in itself is a huge travesty. It is not just adults who are being impacted by this war; it is children as well.

The Palestinian branch of Save The Children charity has said that 20,000 civilians have been killed in this conflict to date. 1 in 3 of those are children. They say that equates to one child being killed every 10 minutes. And that is grim news for Gaza because it has one of the youngest populations in the world.

Nowhere is currently being regarded as being safe for people in Gaza due to the consistent attacks that are coming from Israel. People are afraid of their lives out there at the moment. There is no safe way for them or their families to actually leave their own country right now. It has multiples of grim statistics coming down the tracks and this level of constant bombardment from Israel is only just the start of it.

Netanyahu is not granting a ceasefire to Gaza because, in his words and probably from the words of his own government, it would be seen as "a surrender to Hamas". Netanyahu is going to have the same legacy as being a war criminal just like Putin in Russia if he does not make any effort to end his own reign of destruction against the people of Gaza now.

I just cannot understand why Hamas did the terror attack on Israel on October 7th.

Why did Hamas inflict an undeniable level of pain and misery upon innocent people at that music festival when the consequences for doing so was so going to be so grave when they had struck first on their nearest enemy. Did Hamas not understand at the time that if they did this attack on Israel; they would get the fullest brunt of punishment possible from Netanyahu's government and army without any form of mercy?

The people of Gaza are now stuck with the reality that their own country is now being bombed to oblivion from their nearest enemy that they cannot have a realistic chance to defend themselves properly against the likes of Israel. There is no clear way out for Gaza to ease the tension against Israel in the short to medium term. It is going to be hell for the people of Gaza; and I just don't see how these two countries are going to resolve this war.

Things like more humanitarian aid going into Gaza & the current negotiations to get foreign citizens out of Gaza through a crossing at the Rafah border could act like small fry in this current war between the two countries. It all solely depends on what Netanyahu's words says at this point. If Netanyahu does not give any sort of credible decision making process in making these two things possible. Gaza would be doomed for an eternity if he says no to these means of credible negotiation.

A very fine and mighty example of playing the anti-semitism card:

Not that I mind the clean killing of military objectives, and have little to no tolerance of the killing of civilians, technically therefore I don't support a ceasefire if civilian casualties are zeroed. However, suggesting you're an antisemite if you don't support more bombing etc. I feel like this is familiar. Too familiar..

So if they haven't done what they can to protect civilians, failed in their responsibility to protect civilians and those civilians have died.... isn't that a war crime?

They either were responsible preventing civilian deaths or they were not. The latter being a crime.

They should have done better. But they did quite a lot. I doubt their general approach can be seen as a war crime, but I'm not a lawyer.