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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,038 ✭✭✭Shoog


    My daughter lives next to the river in the heart of cork and I can assure you that's where the bulk of the flooding was happening. There is a lot of very valuable real estate there.

    What happened in Cork has nothing to do with the state of the drainage of the river system there. Half of Cork county is a bowl which collects and delivers water to cork city. Normally the natural drainage copes, but when you have 30 days worth of water deposited on that bowl in less than a day it is overwhelmed and floods. No amount of river management would prevent that from happening.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,038 ✭✭✭Shoog


    National river management is based on the advice of experts in hydrology. That is why it is no longer standard policy to dredge whole rivers. In rare situations as part of a flood management scheme localized dredging is applied.

    You cannot have failed to notice that national policy has shifted.

    You cannot solve flooding by wholesale dredging despite what some local farmer with a digger might assure you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 843 ✭✭✭m2_browning


    You keep making statements but offering zero proof to back up said statements

    Who recommended the policy of no dredging? When? Where?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,554 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    Cleaning rivers is one part of an overall solution, not the only solution. Part of it.

    Cleaning and managing of rivers has been done for centuries. Right up to the point some people got degrees and decided it shouldn't happen anymore. To be honest, you seem like someone with brains, but how you can advocate for not cleaning rivers that have things blocking them, be that trees, silt, rubbish, etc as being an actual positive is amazing. There's no logic whatsoever. If you carry on your thoughts then we'd be better filling in rivers altogether.

    The callows flood every year, and it gets worse. Bord na Mona are actively pumping silt into the river making it shallower and narrower. The biggest river in the country is being restricted. Building on flood plains is the same thing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,582 ✭✭✭jackboy


    I'm not doubting you. What you are describing is clearly not related to climate change. If a flood plain is not flooding, something else, other than volume of rain is causing that.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,038 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Local clearing of blockages is not dredging.

    Local natural hydrology will silt up a dredged stretch of river in absolutely no time at all, it's a waste of money. Rivers clear and maintain their own channels by water flow.

    Dredging has never been as effective as some people claim, the issue is that rainfall has increased meaning floods at every point in a river system are more likely to happen.

    The difference it seems to me between your opinion and mine is that I am listening to experts in their field.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,038 ✭✭✭Shoog


    As I stated the issue was 30 days of rain in one day, the flood plains had little to do with it. The places that flooded would always have flooded in such a scenario.

    An extreme rainstorm is exactly what climate change is causing in Ireland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,582 ✭✭✭jackboy


    That was not extreme. It happens in localised areas in Ireland every year. Every single year.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,038 ✭✭✭Shoog


    As DeCor pointed out this year has been exceptional with regard to rain in every way.

    It is also likely that the extreme weather event of a week ago will be repeated again tonight going into tomorrow which will see cork flooding again.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,582 ✭✭✭jackboy


    Yes, climate change is making is making these events worse and more frequent. Corrupt planning and funneling populations into flood plains however is having a far greater negative impact than climate change, the difference is not even close. The Corrupt politicians and planners are laughing at people going on about climate change when these floods occur. Full reversal of climate change will not have a significant impact on these flooding events.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 843 ✭✭✭m2_browning


    So despite us paying all these taxes and high energy and transportation costs and carpet bombing the country with solar panels and wind generators

    the climate is still changing and we are not allowed to adapt to this change by doing things like dredging rivers

    No wonder the Greens are viewed with such disdain

    The stupidity and arrogance and dogma on display is something to behold



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,202 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    It's always worth listening to farmers as regards weather as they are frequently at the sharp end, sometimes gaining from it and sometimes losing. And the general consensus I hear there is that yes, this is a wet spell or this is a dry spell or a stormy spell.. but we've seen it all before.

    Frequency is hard to prove and can only be established over a period of years which spells in themselves have historically been cyclable. That's not to deny changing climate and weather patterns but it's very foolish to jump on every wet, dry, stormy, snowy spell and shout 'Climate Change'



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,038 ✭✭✭Shoog


    We don't dredge rivers because it makes city flooding worse.



  • Registered Users Posts: 843 ✭✭✭m2_browning


    I am still waiting on you to provide evidence of this policy

    who recommended it and who implemented it and when



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,554 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    History of rain in Ireland

    The moving average is trending up

    While these trends continue, more water needs to be dealt with. And how you deal with water means getting it to the sea as fast as possible once it's on the move. Slowing it down in hills, etc via tree cover, soil cover, etc. Having clean rivers. Having flood defences where needed. Allow flooding on flood plains. This notion of not having clean rivers is bullshit. If you had arteries in your body restricted you'd be looking to get them fixed. If you had pipes in your house blocked you'd look to get them cleaned. How blocking rivers benefits in any way is lunacy @Shoog . You're fixated on dredging as somehow being seen as the golden ticket to solve all these things when it's pointed to you time and time again, this is not the view at all. You don't get that it's part of the solution, not the full solution.

    Is there compensation available to landowners who have lost money as a result of these floods in the same way business in towns can get something?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,038 ✭✭✭Shoog


    I have actually pointed out to you that most of the work is in slowing down water flow as high up the mountains and at the midreaches. You seem to have cottened on to part of what I was pointing to but still miss the point about the negative impacts of dredging.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    A month of rainfall in a day is normal now? Are you serious lol



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,554 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    Excuse me, I've missed no point. I understand what you are saying. You want water slowed down. I get that and that's fine and acceptable. But once the water hits the rivers it's on the move to the sea. And you need to get it there as fast as possible. As more and more water makes it's way to the river, the river rises. Without flood defences (which may protect along the defence but cause issues upstream) then places will flood. The discussion here is about the water in the river, not how it gets there. We agree it should be slowed to get there. The question is when the water is in the river, how do we get it to the sea quick? And the only way is to increase the water carrying capacity of the river. Even if you cleaned 12" out of the river bed that is 12" extra capacity, or more time before the banks are burst and flooding occurs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 562 ✭✭✭InAtFullBack


    Thankfully we have actual history accounts to look back on, not someone anecdotally freaking out on a chat forum:

    (11) Dublin - Storm Damage (1954) - YouTube

    (11) 1947 flood - YouTube Kilkenny

    On the 2nd October 1763 there was a great flood in Kilkenny. At the time this was perceived as the worst flood the city had ever experienced. The two bridges over the river Nore, John's Bridge and Greensbridge were swept away. At that time the city was divided into two boroughs - Irishtown and Englishtown - separated from each other by the Nore tributary, the river Breagagh. On this occasion both rivers flooded causing extensive damage to goods, buildings and ruining livelihoods. The Old Kilkenny Review (1988) gives many accounts of the destruction. 

    There was also considerable suffering in other towns such as Thomastown and Castlecomer and the grand total damage to goods/buildings was £1,634. In addition the cost of rebuilding the two city bridges was : £2,789 (John's) and £2,828 (Greensbridge). Undoubtedly large sums of money at the time.

    It would seem this flood was very much on a par with the flood of 1947. However from a meteorological point of view the origin of this flood was quite different. The 1947 flood was mostly attributed to a rapid snow melt, whereas this flood took place in early October due to torrential rains.

    Above quote from: 1763 The Worst Flood (kilkennyweather.com)

    To conclude, flooding has always happened and always will. We now have the engineering tools for dealing with it easier, however just as these are at our disposal, there are plenty who deny that they should be used or if they'd work.

    When throwing around a denier claim, have a long hard look in the mirror first.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,038 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Using the flood plane as your buffer in the midreaches takes considerable energy out of the water which reduces its potential to do damage. By draining the flood plane as you advocate the you amplify the energy and it damage potential. The overflowing of the river in its midreaches is what defuses floods and dredging defeats that.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 562 ✭✭✭InAtFullBack


    That's twice now in the last 36hrs on this thread that this has been asked despite the original poster never saying it was 'normal'.

    A month's rain in a day is not 'normal' - but it happens on occasion, almost annually, somewhere in Ireland. Whether thats from a summertime thunderstorm, a stalling weather front or convergence - it happens.

    The 1954 Fairview floods - linked above - had a month's worth of rainfall the night it happened.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,554 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    No it doesn't. It delays it. And when the flood plains in towns are built on, they don't exist anymore.



  • Registered Users Posts: 562 ✭✭✭InAtFullBack


    From: Drumcondra and the Tolka River on JSTOR regarding the 1954 Floods:

    As a result, the mouth of the River Tolka was widened east of Annesley Bridge a number of years later. This helped to restore the flow of the river which had been affected by the reclamation of the sloblands.

    The folks of 1954 would put many today to shame in how they dealt with flooding.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,038 ✭✭✭Shoog


    I would never be so rash to attribute any single flooding event to climate change, that would be up to a statistical analysis to decide. Such events are measured in return times, ie when would we expect them to happen at that magnitude again. If flooding at the scale experienced in Cork is a 20 year return event and it starts happening regularly at 10 year intervals then we can say flooding has increased and we can attribute it to a change in the climate.

    Since both the intensity and level of rain events had statistically increased what I would say at the moment the likelihood that the cork flooding has shortened its return frequency is high and that I would expect to see more in a relatively short period.

    That is a scientifically accurate and informative response to the current flooding, and the one you can expect from a climate scientist.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,038 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Most flood planes are in farmland, it is unfortunate that some town based flood planes have been built on - but on a whole catchment basis this is relatively insignificant to overall hydrology.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭thinkabouit


    From what I’m seeing with my own eye’s nearly every field i pass on the road is completely over grazed for the time of year & climate we have.

    All land grazed to an inch of the ground how is that supposed to hold the volume of water that could come this time of year?

    Nearly every river i see when walking is brown with silt & muck also.

    Been saying it for year’s, grassland management isnt anywhere near good enough.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,559 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,641 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    Is this not farmers cutting all summer for bales of hay so they aren't caught out like they were a few years ago?

    Could be wrong now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭thinkabouit


    No i dont think that’s the root cause, they absolutely have to bale & make forage because we just never know in Ireland what kinda Weather we will get.

    I think the animals are on a certain field or pasture a bit too long, that’s why its over grazing. I no a farmer has to manage costs etc thats why they graze it so hard.

    But when that practice is implemented on tens of thousands of acres around Cork, NI etc the land isn’t capable of holding the water long enough.

    But to be fair also, we have had an absolutely insane amount of rain this year also.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It will be interesting to see what impact this has, though with about a year to run in the current govt, I don't think there's enough time left to see much come to fruition but who knows

    Minister Noonan’s official title change is to Minister of State with responsibility for Nature, Heritage and Electoral Reform.

    It’s the first time an Irish Government Minister has been designated explicit responsibility for ‘nature’.

    The areas of marine protection, water quality and protection for Ireland’s rivers and lakes now fall within Minister Noonan’s brief.

    The National Parks and Wildlife Service, water quality and marine protection all under the same Ministry.



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