Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Clo-Clo · 31-10-2023 11:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121303921#Comment_121303921

The Grand Slam game mattered IMO

So did the SA group game and all the other games we won.

Clo-Clo · 31-10-2023 11:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121303499#Comment_121303499

It's coach of the year, not coach of the World Cup.

Farrell lost one game this year, how many other can say that?

Winning a Grand Slam I think Ireland can rightly claim was exceeding expectations as we have won it so few times. The rest you are just trying to make a case because they didn't do as shite as people expected. Why not throw Gatland into the mix while we are at it sure?

The only person I would have a case for is Nienabar but he is stuck in that mad setup with Rassie and that I would expect hurt his chances. He is not seen in rugby as the head coach, Rassie is, Rassie rules himself out because he says he is the DOR. From reports one of the reasons why Nienabar wants to go solo and get the recognition he deserves

Clo-Clo · 31-10-2023 11:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121303440#Comment_121303440

Yes Lagisquet and Portugal was exciting to watch but coaching wise I would have questions. So yes the players outperformed but if Portugal had a better coaching setup could they have done better? to me I believe they could have

sydthebeat · 31-10-2023 11:44am

Fiji came into the competition ranked 7th in the world, higher than wales, australia and england.

No on will deny that getting to a RWC QF is an achievement for Fiji, they went about it the hard way. Losing to a muck welsh side, losing to Portugal, falling over the line against Georgia and beating the worse Australian team in living memory, one which was patently sabotaged by its own coach. i would argue that Fiji didn't actually play to their potential in this competition. The game was there for them against England with 10 minutes to go and they couldn't take it. What raiwalui has brought is set piece solidity and a modicum of control, which they unfortunately lose when muntz was ruled out.

they ended the year with 5 wins and 5 losses.

i love Fiji for their mix of power and flair, but my god if they could get their sh!te together they could be unstoppable.

OldRio · 31-10-2023 12:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121302713#Comment_121302713

Its a 'simple' argument.

Mr Disco · 31-10-2023 1:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121304565#Comment_121304565

Grand Slams can be discounted given the woeful level of the teams. Aside from France the other 4 couldn’t be any worse

SuprSi · 31-10-2023 1:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121305029#Comment_121305029

Same for the Rugby Championship, I presume? Aside from NZ & SA, the other 2 teams are shite.

irelandrover · 31-10-2023 1:23pm

So Borthwick in the running for world coach of the year because his team got to the semi final according to one poster.

But his team is so shite that Irelands grand slam can be discounted according to another.

Dubinusa · 31-10-2023 1:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121305143#Comment_121305143

I thought the union would fire Borthwick after the world cup. He's probably done enough to keep his job. We shall see how England do in the 6nations.

phog · 31-10-2023 2:08pm

A 6Ns will or at least should always be our target, it's an annual event. It's a high prestige tournament and aside from all of that it's a cash cow for the Unions.

In saying all that, there's no reason why we can't target a RWC, we have a summer & autumn round of friendlies where we can try combinations or up & coming players to develop them and use in a 6Ns and or a RWC

ScissorPaperRock · 31-10-2023 2:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121305143#Comment_121305143

There are a few posters here whose main 'contribution' to this forum is to **** on any achievements by the Irish rugby team and to contort everything into arguments that diminish those achievements. The consistency or coherence between those arguments tends to fall apart as soon as you look them, because that's what tends to happen when you have a 'viewpoint' and try to make the data fit it (and ignore what doesn't).

The less we pay attention to these posters, the better.

Mr Tickle · 31-10-2023 2:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121303393#Comment_121303393

I think Cooney was actually ahead of Blade at the time. Marmion was still first choice, but the other two were pretty close to eachother. In the 2016 final Cooney was on the bench. He was generally getting picked ahead of Blade in 2016. The three of them was probably the best depth that any province has had at 9 for a while.

You're right about the move being for 1st team rugby. That was definitely a benefit to ireland in terms of having more game time going to our 4 best 9s.

The Guru 123 · 31-10-2023 3:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121304531#Comment_121304531

Never said they didn’t but by far and away the biggest game of the year was that quarter final and Ireland didn’t get it done. Grand slams you have a go at every year, group games are so uncompetitive that you probably only have 2 meaningful ones and you can afford to lose 1. I won’t even mention the other friendlies as important.

I think any team that only gives the World Cup winners 1 spot lacks credibility.

Handre Pollard didn’t miss a single kick in the World Cup. Not one. And given that they won their 3 knockout games by a point had he missed even 1, there’s no World Cup.

The Guru 123 · 31-10-2023 3:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121303962#Comment_121303962

South Africa won their 3 knockout games by a point. They also had a tight game in the group against us that they lost.

You telling me it’s all just small margins and random variance that they got on the right side of the 3 of those that actually mattered but not the one that didn’t?

That’s head in the sand stuff.

sydthebeat · 31-10-2023 3:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121305672#Comment_121305672

It's almost as if the margins at the very top level are tiny

ScissorPaperRock · 31-10-2023 3:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121305695#Comment_121305695

I mean... clearly, yes, they could very easily have been on the other side of any of those 3 matches. That is the literal implication of a 1-point margin.

On the balance of probability, you'd have to say that if those 3 matches were played again, at least one of them would likely go the other way.

Clo-Clo · 31-10-2023 3:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121305672#Comment_121305672

Disagree, the qtr final you got nothing at the end of it. The Grand Slam game v England meant we won a Grand Slam and a Triple Crown. Ireland at this stage should not be turning our nose to it, especially when you consider how many times France have won it and still when they won it in 2022 it was a huge deal.

The other "friendlies" 🤔

Handre Pollard played how many minutes in the World Cup?

The final was more about the kicks that NZ missed

The semi was more about the scrum than Pollard

The qtr final was just all out madness and can't remember Pollard having much of an impact at all. The Kolbe block was more of a swing or the Ezebeth jumping out of the line and knocking the ball one handed, which was about to be a try for France and ended up a few mins later been a try for SA and put them back into the game.

Jump_In_Jack · 31-10-2023 3:30pm

The tired old argument that only World Cup knockouts matter is being thrown about again.

Every match matters; every 6 Nations matters, every Triple Crown attempt matters, winning every home match in the 6 nations matters, every time we win an away game in the 6 nations matters. The Autumn Internationals matter, up against SANZAR countries, Argentina, Fiji, Japan, Samoa all matter. Summer test series matter. Beating team on their home patch, putting up big scores on teams we're better than.

I can only assume the people that think only the World Cup knockouts matter are not following all of the other matches.

Now back to reality, there are about 45 players that were part of the squad for the World Cup, and that squad looks in great shape to go on and win another grand slam, to win back-to-back grand slams, this time the hard way, away to England and France, now that will matter.

Clo-Clo · 31-10-2023 3:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121305843#Comment_121305843

THis is it, at the start of World Cup most people agreed the top 4 countries..Ireland/France/SA/NZ could all beat each other on any day based on the bounce of the ball

As it turned out in the World Cup this is exactly what happened.

The only questionable result was SA v England which in reality SA should have beaten England out the door. But the second game syndrome came up with SA not been able to get to the same edge. It pi**ed rain and for some reason the SA coachs seemed to have no idea how England would play and the rest of the World knew. It was very odd and all they had to do was watch Leicester in the Premiership final and that's the exact same. Bad prep by SA who seemed to have their eyes on NZ in final.

Clo-Clo · 31-10-2023 3:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121305029#Comment_121305029

Don't think so, no rugby fan in North or South would make a claim like that.

Clo-Clo · 31-10-2023 4:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121305892#Comment_121305892

France v Ireland up first will be critical, win that game and we can look at a grand Slam. France can be slow starters so we need to get out of the blocks, will know more in terms of who is available in terms of who will be favorites but France could be all fired up after losing the home World Cup which they lined up for 6 years now

Jump_In_Jack · 31-10-2023 4:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306116#Comment_121306116

Absolutely, that first match has all the ingredients to be as big a match as the World Cup quarter-final. France suffered the same fate as us, but did so in their own back yard, and they will be hurting. Every pundit out there pretty much seems to think Ireland and France are 3rd and 4th best teams in the world, neither will want to be relegated to 4th best in the world at this point. France have lost Atonio and Taofifénua already, not sure if there will be more before the 6 nations. I think we will only be without Earls and Sexton.

awec · 31-10-2023 4:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121305892#Comment_121305892

I mean, they all matter but there is clearly a hierarchy. The NZ game was the biggest game in our history, and it wasn't even close. It eclipsed our Grand Slam games. It would have been monumental for Irish Rugby.

Autumn games and summer tours are genuinely nothing in comparison to actual competitions. They are calendar fillers, and in some ways are hangovers from the amateur era when touring was the be-all-and-end-all. We could beat NZ in the Autumn and I'll sure we'll celebrate it as if we've achieved something.

I think some people are growing tired of people trying to substitute one for the other. Yea, we threw away the best chance we ever had, and are ever likely to have, to win a World Cup, or at least compete in a RWC final, but sure we won a Grand Slam and we won a test in NZ. They are chasms apart, but are being spoken about as if they are equals, as if one is meant to compensate for the other.

A back to back Grand Slam is possible. Great. Still pales in comparison to a World Cup.

I distinctly remember after the disappointment of 2019 and 2015 posters on this forum telling just that Irish Rugby shouldn't worry about RWCs, we'll never be contenders etc. Sure why would we ever push ourselves, we are competitive in the 6N and we should just content ourselves that this is our lot. The same people, I am sure, would have been the ones telling us in the mid-00s that we shouldn't get above our station and we should continue to party as if we're world champions when we win Triple Crowns. "Ah yea sure, we didn't win the 6N this year, but look we won a Triple Crown and that's really, really important and huge!"

The Irish Rugby following, and the media too, is absolutely full of utter sycophants.

awec · 31-10-2023 4:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121305915#Comment_121305915

THis is it, at the start of World Cup most people agreed the top 4 countries..Ireland/France/SA/NZ could all beat each other on any day based on the bounce of the ball

As it turned out in the World Cup this is exactly what happened.

I mean, this is obviously total nonsense in regards to our loss, but fairly on par for the revisionism in this thread.

Dropping routine catches, missing gimme kicks, a malfunctioning line out, stupid penalties, basic defensive errors, some serious mental gymnastics required to frame this as "the bounce of a ball".

RichieRich_89 · 31-10-2023 4:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121305892#Comment_121305892

Yeah, doing things that haven't been done before is the way Ireland can keep improving. The next ones to target are back-to-back Grand Slams and winning a Test Series in South Africa. They would be new achievements.

It won't be easy.

Podge_irl · 31-10-2023 4:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306186#Comment_121306186

and are ever likely to have

I may just be an insane optimist, but I don't believe this bit.

I think internally the team is obviously the best we have ever had and some of the players will be very difficult to replace, but external factors were not exactly aligned in our favour. I'm not griping about those, just saying we could easily have a nicer route to the final in the future together with a team capable of taking advantage of it.

Clo-Clo · 31-10-2023 4:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306170#Comment_121306170

France squad is huge and the options they have from the clubs means losing 1-2 players won't affect them.

Sexton is the question if we can replace and then injuries. Last time in France it was Joey at 10 and we didn't do too bad with a close loss.

I guess Crowley is front runner at the moment for the starting 10 jersey

Clo-Clo · 31-10-2023 4:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306200#Comment_121306200

Agree to disagree

awec · 31-10-2023 4:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306273#Comment_121306273

Yes, you could argue we may get lucky and not have to play SA and NZ in future (though to win it, you'll have to beat good teams).

But you could also say it won't be often you get the opportunity to play a completely hopeless Argentina in a semi final either. That game would have been a gimme.

Literally everything was perfect this time. Perfect preparation. No real injury problems. Stars won't align like that too often.

AbusesToilets · 31-10-2023 4:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306200#Comment_121306200

And yet it was quite literally a bounce of a ball (Barrett's chip) and a thigh that made the difference. All those negatives could be thrown at NZ too. Terrible defense.on.NZ's part. We went up and down the pitch at will multiple times, Aki's try. Our lineout maul was dominant.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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