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Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,405 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    All Eyes On Rafah



  • Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭Jimi H


    For those saying it’s essentially the fault of the civilians for being killed because the refugee camp is in the North, they’re also bombing the south

    https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/gallery/2023/10/31/photos-in-rafah-israeli-bombing-shatters-buildings-shatters-lives



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,438 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Regarding the IHL and civilian objects. To all who are screaming about Israel breaking the IHL by attacking civilian objects harboring terrorists.

    Under international humanitarian law (IHL), also known as the law of war, it is generally prohibited to attack civilian objects. This means that any object which is not a military objective is protected from attack. Civilian objects include homes, schools, places of worship, hospitals, and other objects which are essential to the civilian population.


    However, there is an exception to this general prohibition. If a civilian object is being used for military purposes, it may be attacked, provided that the attack is carried out in accordance with the principles of distinction, proportionality, and precaution.


    The principle of distinction requires that parties to a conflict distinguish between civilian objects and military objectives. This means that they must take all feasible precautions to avoid harming civilians and civilian objects.


    The principle of proportionality requires that the anticipated incidental loss of civilian life or damage to civilian objects be clearly outweighed by the direct and concrete military advantage anticipated.


    The principle of precaution requires that parties to a conflict take all feasible precautions in the choice of means and methods of attack with a view to avoiding, and in any event minimizing, incidental loss of civilian life and damage to civilian objects.


    In the case of a civilian object which is being used for military purposes, the attacker must weigh the military advantage of attacking the object against the anticipated incidental loss of civilian life and damage to civilian objects. If the anticipated incidental loss is excessive, the attack is prohibited.


    Even if an attack on a civilian object which is being used for military purposes is lawful, the attacker must also take all feasible precautions to minimize incidental loss of civilian life and damage to civilian objects. This may include giving effective warning of the attack, choosing weapons and methods of attack that minimize the risk of incidental harm, and taking steps to evacuate civilians from the area of the attack.


    In conclusion, it is generally prohibited to attack civilian objects under IHL. However, an exception to this prohibition exists if the civilian object is being used for military purposes, provided that the attack is carried out in accordance with the principles of distinction, proportionality, and precaution.


    It is important to note that the interpretation and application of IHL can be complex and there is often disagreement among experts about the lawfulness of particular attacks. In the event of doubt, parties to a conflict should err on the side of caution and avoid attacking civilian objects.


    Sources:

    www.icrc.org/en/doc/resources/documents/interview/2011/cyber-warfare-interview-2011-08-16.htm

    books.google.com/books?id=HrtloqmDcYoC


    The following IHL clauses provide the exception to the general prohibition on attacking civilian objects:


    Article 52(2) of Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions: "In so far as objects mentioned in paragraph 1 are used for military purposes, it shall be permissible to attack them after such warning has been given as is reasonably practicable or as required by the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict without an armed conflict."


    Rule 55 of customary IHL: "In so far as objects mentioned in Rule 54 are used for military purposes, it shall be permissible to attack them after such warning has been given as is reasonably practicable or as required by the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict without an armed conflict."


    These clauses make it clear that civilian objects may be attacked if they are being used for military purposes, but only after such warning has been given as is reasonably practicable. The requirement to give warning is intended to minimize incidental loss of civilian life and damage to civilian objects.


    It is important to note that the IHL clauses do not define what constitutes "use for military purposes." This is a matter of fact to be determined in each case. However, some examples of civilian objects being used for military purposes include:

    A civilian building that is being used as a military command center

    A civilian factory that is producing weapons

    A civilian airport that is being used to deploy or transport troops

    A civilian road that is being used to transport military supplies


    If a civilian object is being used for military purposes, the attacker must still comply with the principles of distinction, proportionality, and precaution. This means that the attacker must take all feasible precautions to avoid harming civilians and civilian objects.


    In conclusion, the IHL clauses provide an exception to the general prohibition on attacking civilian objects. However, this exception is only available if the civilian object is being used for military purposes and the attacker complies with the principles of distinction, proportionality, and precaution.



  • Registered Users Posts: 259 ✭✭gotaf




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,947 ✭✭✭circadian


    Here's a clue, the answer is none and it sure as **** isn't 50 in the middle of a refugee camp.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭ollkiller


    That would make more sense with the blast radius alright.



  • Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 76,133 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    mode1990 threadbanned



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,389 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I’ll gladly pay you Tuesday for ethnic cleansing today



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Hamas won't release hostages unless Israel immediately releases 6000 terrorists ,

    And the UN has been so busy condemning Israel they have some how forgotten about terrorist groups Assad in Syria and putin,



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,328 ✭✭✭Frank Grimes


    I guess "displaced" sounds better than using terms like ethnically cleansed. Queue usual suspects in attack mode.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 82,389 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Do you have any evidence Israel even recognizes those laws?



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling




  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 10,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭humberklog


    That bombing of the refugee camp is awful. The crater is huge, 50+ people died.

    The bombing of the hospital the previous week had no such crater and killed 500?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,985 ✭✭✭rogber


    Israel becoming the new Russia in terms of war crimes and deliberate murder of civilians. Fine company to keep



  • Registered Users Posts: 936 ✭✭✭boetstark


    My god man tune in to CNN and listen to what those murdering bastards Hamas did to kids , torture , mutilation in cold blood. Eyewitness reports from independent medics.

    Where were all the marches condemning this , none.

    I know if I was an ordinary decent Palestinian I would be marching to protest at what those subhumans did in my name.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,044 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    There is no stopping of what is happening there. Seems like culmination of all events ever since Israel was created. Neither Israel or Palestine are going to stop and other parties are actively engaging in this conflict now.

    Expect things to get worse. Much worse.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,438 ✭✭✭McGiver


    That's war. Military target. Enterily lawful.

    Civilians were asked to evacuate. Hamas stopped them. Hamas built tunnels beneath the camp for themselves (not the civilians) to hide. They are to blame.

    It's horrible but that's war. That's how it works. Reality check. No crime committed here by IDF. Hamas have committed a crime against humanity, in fact.

    It's not hard to grasp. We're yet to hear a condemnation of Hamas in this case from the usual suspects on this thread. I don't think it will come. Their agenda is to blame Israel for everything.



  • Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭Jimi H


    I don’t think the 6,000 are all Hamas. A large proportion are imprisoned without trial. They even imprison children and some are held for years without ever being charged.

    So-called administrative detainees are arrested on “secret evidence”, unaware of the accusations against them, and are not allowed to defend themselves in court. They are usually held for renewable six-month periods that often lead to years in detention



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,405 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    Twitter was alight earlier that IDF forces were caught in an ambush and took heavy losses. Wonder if we will find out if it was true. The amount of BS online whether its twitter reddit, forums or even here is unreal.

    All Eyes On Rafah



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,158 ✭✭✭✭StringerBell


    "People say ‘go with the flow’ but do you know what goes with the flow? Dead fish."



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,298 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    Already war fatigue has set in.

    Western people moving on.

    Arab states full of bluster.



  • Registered Users Posts: 65,320 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    None is nonsense. Civilians die in wars when combatants are targeted. Please read the above post by @McGiver on IHL

    The question here is how is proportionality generally accepted by IHL lawyers.

    Thankfully we don't have rules that are made up on the spot by emotional people.



  • Registered Users Posts: 300 ✭✭keynes


    All apparently to kill one Hamas commander, and who even believes they got him, and how would they even know?



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,389 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Said without evidence. Dismissed with evidence:

    whataboutery now dismissed, which never excused what just happened to civilians at the refugee camp.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,151 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Yeah flee south where you will have no home or water or food or fuel....and guess what we will be bombing the south too, just not as much. An offer they could not refuse. 1.4m displaced now without basic needs and a trickle of aid coming in. Bargain offer by those kind Israelis and their puppet/muppet PM.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users Posts: 300 ✭✭keynes


    They see this as an ample opportunity to rid the country of all Palestinians



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Looks like a bunker or something very big exploded Underground, that crater doesn't look like any we have seen elsewhere over the last week or two



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,438 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Hamas wants as much suffering and as many civilian deaths as possible. That is their currency for their global disinformation psy ops to keep them at the helm, stealing resources in Gaza and ruling the place, which allows them to keep stealing. Eternal gravy train.

    Simply, it's a stupid idea. They won't negotiate. They want Israel to cause massive casualties.

    Israel has been quite restrained in fact. They know they have to minimise civilian deaths. This is the most difficult battlefield on the planet to do that. Not easy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    They confirmed two soldiers died and several others injured



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  • Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭Jimi H




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