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DART+ (DART Expansion)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 68,560 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I'm fairly sure the standard two platform, one bridge station in the UK costs about £20m by now.

    Private Eye compared the cost of Pelletstown (which included a canal bridge too) at €10.5m to the single track (albeit with a bridge) Soham station costing £18.6m



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,872 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Think when Clontarf Road station opened (1997) a figure of about £1.3M was quoted in the media.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    We should probably consider spending a bit more on stations given the state that Contarf Road is in now. The finishes on Irish station designs is like a fit out from Dealz.



  • Registered Users Posts: 547 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    I hope there is a project at some point to upgrade stations and maximize their utility. Could be tackled as a larger "plan / goal" rather than ad-hoc upgrades of individual stations.

    Improved look and feel, better accessibility, better services etc. For example, station platforms are almost 200m long, but platforms are accessed by a single point entrance. Even in a huge station such as Connolly this is true. From Seville Place, you can see the platforms which they are about 50m from the road, however the walk to them is over 700m long.

    Killester is another example. The N4 bus drops you off 80m from the platform, but the actual walk to get there is 450m. How many more people would be brought within 400m of a train station with such a simple upgrade, without having to build a single station!...



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    Are the newer stations such as Pelletstown better from the point of view of accessibility and integration into the surrounding neighbouhood?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 547 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    Pelletstown works well as the entrance is right in the middle of the platforms with an entrance from the north and south.

    But pick any station along the current network, check Google maps, and you'll see lots of them have the same issue. Entrances tend to be a one end of the platforms: Sandymount, Drumcondra, Grand Canal Dock, Spencer Dock.

    It's such an easy win just sitting there waiting to be capitalised on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,627 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    Not sure if the "access at one end" issue can be solved for a lot of them, esp Sandymount, unless you rebuild the road network in the area.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,645 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    If the access to platforms is improved/increased then ticket validation needs to move towards revenue protection on train with validation off train so the barriers are not needed.

    It would require more travelling inspectors with zero tolerance of 'no-ticket' situations with substantial penalties for culprits. It works in European train services so why not here?



  • Registered Users Posts: 547 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    Some engineering needed, but entirely possible. New entrances would be heavily aimed at pedestrian access, so it shouldn't involve any rebuild of the road network.

    Sandymount:




  • Registered Users Posts: 7,627 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    Access via the "other end" mean a long walk down a "alley" beside the tracks, don't see people doing this at night...



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,665 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    The barriers are largely theoretical outside of the core big city center stations already anyway. At places like Clontarf Road they are usually left open or easily bypassed for emergency access anyway.

    BTW What is wrong with Clontarf Road? It is pretty utilitarian, but other then making sure the lifts work, it is pretty ok. I suppose could do with more shelters from the rain on the platform.



  • Registered Users Posts: 547 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    To be clear (in case it isn't), I'm not proposing they install narrow, dark, dodgy laneways at the side of every station.

    You can see the current laneway in the image above (it's on the right sandwiched between the building and the platforms). What I'm proposing would effectively be an extended platform/path north, along the red line in the image, until it reaches the road. This would not be narrow or dodgy.

    In any case, Sandymount was just an example. It wouldn't be a high priority for an access upgrade. Other stations such as GCD, Connolly, Killester would be priority.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,172 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    DART+ covers a complete overhaul of Connolly and a new entrance concourse under platforms 5/6/7



  • Registered Users Posts: 547 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    Yeah this is true. The new entrance at Preston Street is badly needed and will be busy. It's a shame they've permanently removed the bus stops at Preston Street along that busy bus corridor.

    Using my previous example, from Seville Place the platform is 50m away, but the walk via Preston Street is 360m. Better but still not ideal.

    I'm not sure if the new Connolly Quarter or "The Arches" includes direct access to the platforms. The platforms are 120m from the middle of the proposed development, but the walk via Preston Street street will be 510m.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,022 ✭✭✭Brian CivilEng


    Some Leap validators on platform at Connolly would be useful. Been caught out a few times where I’m dropped off by an inter city train at Platform 6 or 7, then miss the dart 3mins later because I have to walk back to the concourse to tag on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 223 ✭✭danfrancisco83


    Is it not time to put validators in the carriages, like most European cities?



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,627 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    For Killester, I would move the station south a tad, and have it beside the Collins Ave Bridge, much more space for a station, better bus connections.



  • Registered Users Posts: 769 ✭✭✭MICKEYG


    Certainly allowing access from Collins Ave to the existing station would be a big help.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,228 ✭✭✭highdef


    Better still, leave the station exactly where it is now but have an additional entrance from the old bridge on Collins Avenue. From that bridge, the west end of the platforms are a mere 70m away, which essentially make up the lengths of the ramps from the old bridge to each of the platforms.

    The old bridge could possibly even be used as a stopping area for a suitable bus route, if deemed worthwhile. If not, a small booking hall could be constructed at the same location instead. Whether it be manned and the existing one be closed or if it an automated/unmanned one, I can't say as I don't know enough about the passenger flows in the area.




  • Registered Users Posts: 68,560 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I wouldn't go relying on the old bridge actually being there in a few years if there's works to increase track capacity as proposed.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,228 ✭✭✭highdef


    Well if the bridge is demolished (I've checked and it's not listed/protected), the area it occupied could have a new structure built in its place and still have space for 4-tracking. It's not a biggie. In fact, demolition of the current old bridge would mean a purpose built structure/area can be installed that would be fit for purpose.

    No doubt that the boffins in Irish Rail have already dabbled at this very idea.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,630 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    The plan that came out earlier in the year was to expand to 4 tracks from Connolly to Malahide.

    I'd imagine they would avoid doing anything that would need to be built again as part of the 4 track project.

    As a previous poster said though, I do think that bridges days are numbered.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26 ConorF


    I've always liked the idea (somewhat out of self-interest) of a Phoenix Park stop on Dart SW between Heuston West and the proposed Cabra stop. While I appreciate adding city centre stops involves slowing down commuters from the outer parts of the GDA, who are the main customers of these lines, it just seems like an obvious move given how popular the park and zoo are and the fact that they'll need to do work on the tunnel anyway.

    The Gardai might have something to say about it, but there's a fenced off section in front of their HQ (in respect of which there appears to be no current plan other than letting cherry laurel take over) which would be perfect for zoo visitors and is roughly half way between the two stops previously mentioned.

    Just thought I'd toss it out there for discussion.




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,546 ✭✭✭KrisW1001



    I mentioned this a while back, but I can’t find the post now. I wasn’t the first person to suggest it either... The big draw of this plan that this station would serve Dublin Zoo, the country’s top (paid) tourist attraction, which has over a million visitors a year and catchment that draws visitors from well outside of Dublin. (And if you’ve ever driven there, you’ll know what a ball-ache parking can be).

    The big downside to this idea is that while it’s okay from the North-western line or even from Connolly, to get to here from Heuston would require passengers to get off their national train and walk over a quarter of a mile around to platform 10 for the train that goes under the Phoenix Park.

    Also, building a cut-and-cover station there could be a major planning issue, it could take a couple of years, and it would stop all PPT services while it was being done.



  • Registered Users Posts: 547 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    Once the expanded Dart network is up and running, they would be foolish not to allow intercity trains connect with a stop on the network such as Clondalkin or Hazelhatch.

    It's the same issue outbound. To connect with an intercity, you'd need to get off at Heuston West and walk backwards. This is what European cities do - one main stop in the centre and another on the outskirts which feeds passengers from multiple lines.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,464 ✭✭✭jlang


    Someone coming in the Kildare line would be able to change to the Connolly bound train before theirs gets to Heuston. But at the end of the day Heuston to Dublin Zoo is less than 1 mile entrance to entrance so it would be hard for any public transport option to beat walking the last bit. At 30 minute frequency, the 99 bus certainly won't.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,409 ✭✭✭orangerhyme


    Is it actually possible to four track it between Connolly and Malahide?

    There's loads of houses



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,546 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Now, I’m usually in favour of walking, but in this case, not so much: the walk is about 20-25 minutes, but with small kids (this is the Zoo, remember), it'll be longer and rattier than that. Plus, a trip to the Zoo is a lot of walking anyway, so adding another mile on top at either end is a recipe for tired, sullen and cranky children.

    I take your point about changing onto a DART service further west, though - that would do perfectly well.

    The big concern I suspect is that this would be a very busy station, with long dwell times to clear and load trains and a need for large platforms, and that could be a problem in the space available.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,690 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Not a hope of a station in that location.

    The curvature of the track is too great - it would breach accessibility requirements for new stations and the CRR would never allow it. You need a long straight stretch or a very gentle curve that facilitates eight car trains.

    The first suitable location north of Heuston West would be once the line straightens near Blackhorse Avenue which is probably too close to the proposed Cabra Station and too far away from the Park.

    Regards the walk, remember that both the N2 and O bus routes will be starting next year and they will link Heuston with the NCR gate into the Phoenix Park at a high frequency.

    Post edited by LXFlyer on


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,690 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Regarding service patterns, I would hope that in the future what you would see is Cork, Galway and Waterford Intercity services linking into the Portlaoise-Heuston stopping service at Portlaoise, Portarlington and Kildare respectively (with the Intercity trains then running non-stop to Heuston), and that the Portlaoise stopping train would connect with DART at Hazelhatch and then run non-stop to Heuston, thus providing connections to/from the intermediate stations and across to Connolly.

    That’s the best way of ensuring competitive Intercity journey times while building the network connectivity up.



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