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Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,427 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Defend posters who, from thousands of miles away, with no qualifications or experience declare as fact that Israel has committed no war crimes all you want. IMHO it simply isn’t credible.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    I'm sure they are still counting 1000 + victim of the hospital that wasn't bombed a few weeks ago



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,988 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I'll undersign that. I just have less confidence in Israel about it than that (far more than Hamas).



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,103 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    You must have missed Netanyahus little moment when he started quoting the old testament there.

    Do the millions Palestinians in Arab East Jerusalem, the occuppied west bank and golan get a vote to the Israeli knesset?

    And who or what is Israel accountable to?



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,909 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Blockade?

    "The European Union remains Cuba’s main export and trade partner. It is also the largest foreign investor in the country (mainly in the tourism, construction, light industry and agro-industry sectors) and accounts for one third of the tourists arriving on the island."

    Doesn't seem to be working so well if they have all this trade with the rest of the world. Might as well ask for the ending of the North Korean blockade on South Korea.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Looks like Israel has completely cut Gaza in two according to the latest updates




  • Registered Users Posts: 30,106 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Firstly, that isn't what the poster said. This is what they said:

    I am not declaring that no war crimes have been committed by Israel, but what I am saying is that it is not immediately apparent that Israel has committed any war crimes and their actions may be justified and justifiable under international law.

    Secondly, where are your posts challenging posters who, from thousands of miles away, with no qualifications or experience declare as fact that Israel has done so? Or go ahead, show me the posts where you challenged such an accusation against Israel?

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,827 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    Not immediately apparent...

    Collective punishment.

    Restricting aid entering Gaza.

    Shelling civilians in a car point blank with a tank.

    Targeting and killing a journalist.

    Deploying white phosphorus in a civilian area, endangering them.

    That's 5, that to me (and the likes of amnesty international) appear pretty apparent.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,631 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Was always the plan. Now the real work starts for the IDF but it's going to be messy and bloody.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,909 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    You don't seem to have understood my posts on the matter. There is no clear evidence of war crimes by Israel. Their actions may be justified and justifiable under international law which is why Norway have only said that Israel MAY have committed war crimes. Simple as that.

    By contrast, there are posters like yourself, who without any knowledge or understanding of law, let alone international law, without any examination of the evidence or lack of, have concluded that Israel are guilty of war crimes. So, no understanding of international law, no examination of evidence, yet you convict. Wouldn't like to see you on a jury.

    Your postings on the matter simply aren't credible.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 82,988 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    It's not hidden in the reporting:

    Yet the Gaza-based Ministry of Health — an agency in the Hamas-controlled government — continues to tally casualty numbers. It released its first detailed report on the casualties Thursday, giving names, ID numbers, ages and gender for Palestinians it says have been killed. The total toll is 7,028 Palestinians, including 2,913 minors, according to the ministry.

    ...

    The United Nations and other international institutions and experts, as well as Palestinian authorities in the West Bank — rivals of Hamas — say the Gaza ministry has long made a good-faith effort to account for the dead under the most difficult conditions.

    ...

    The ministry releases casualty updates every few hours, providing the number of dead and wounded with a breakdown for men, women and minors. The ministry generally doesn’t provide names, ages or locations of those killed. That information comes from reporters on the ground or the Hamas-run government media office.

    ...

    Hamas, as Gaza’s ruling authority, exerts control over the Health Ministry. But it’s different than political and security agencies that Hamas runs.

    The Palestinian Authority, which controlled Gaza before Hamas overran the area in 2007, retains power over health and education services in Gaza, though it’s based in the occupied West Bank. The ministry is a mix of recent Hamas hires and older civil servants affiliated with the secular nationalist Fatah party, officials say.

    The Fatah-dominated authority that administers Palestinian cities in the Israeli-occupied West Bank has its own health ministry in Ramallah, which still provides medical equipment to Gaza, pays Health Ministry salaries and handles patient transfers from the blockaded enclave to Israeli hospitals.

    Health Minister Mai al-Kaila in Ramallah oversees the parallel ministries, which receive the same data from hospitals. Her deputy is based in Gaza.

    The Ramallah ministry said it trusts casualty figures from partners in Gaza, and it takes longer to publish figures because it tries to confirm numbers with its own Gaza staff.

    Hamas tightly controls access to information and runs the government media office that offers details on Israeli airstrikes. But employees of the Health Ministry insist Hamas doesn’t dictate casualty figures.

    “Hamas is one of the factions. Some of us are aligned with Fatah, some are independent,” said Ahmed al-Kahlot, director of Kamal Adwan Hospital in northern Gaza. “More than anything, we are medical professionals.”

    ...

    Throughout four wars and numerous bloody skirmishes between Israel and Hamas, U.N. agencies have cited the Health Ministry’s death tolls in regular reports. The International Committee of the Red Cross and Palestinian Red Crescent also use the numbers.

    In the aftermath of war, the U.N. humanitarian office has published final death tolls based on its own research into medical records.

    In all cases the U.N.'s counts have largely been consistent with the Gaza Health Ministry’s, with small discrepancies.

    — 2008 war: The ministry reported 1,440 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 1,385.

    — 2014 war: The ministry reported 2,310 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 2,251.

    — 2021 war: The ministry reported 260 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 256.

    While Israel and the Palestinians disagree over the numbers of militants versus civilians killed in past wars, Israel’s accounts of Palestinian casualties have come close to the Gaza ministry’s. For instance, Israel’s Foreign Ministry said the 2014 war killed 2,125 Palestinians — just a bit lower than the ministry’s toll.

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Israel has killed “thousands” of militants in the current war, without offering evidence or precise numbers.

    International news agencies, including AP, as well as humanitarian workers and rights groups, have used the ministry’s numbers when independent verification is impossible.

    “These figures are professionally done and have proven to be reliable,” said Omar Shakir, Human Rights Watch’s Israel and Palestine director, adding he remained “cognizant of different blind spots and weaknesses” such as the failure to distinguish between civilians and combatants.

    These numbers and the associated press reporting are a direct refutation of the oft-repeated dismissal of the numbers 'because Hamas' it is also an obviation of the argument made in the tweet shared in your post that the press is oblivious or not respective of how Hamas and the Health Ministry interact.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,631 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Isreal is accountable to the people of Israel.

    The PLO in the West Bank are accountable to the Palestinians living there (even if they are highly corrupt.)

    Hamas are not accountable to anyone.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,427 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Will you call for Israeli politicians and soldiers to be handed over to the ICC in the same way as Hamas officials and soldiers if both are indicted for war crimes?

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Street by street, tunnel by tunnel we haven't even the worst of it yet



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,166 ✭✭✭threeball


    I compared Netanyahu to Putin, I didn't compare Israel to Russia so its not a nonsense comparison. He was shackled only by the confines of Israeli law which he tried his best to circumvent.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,631 ✭✭✭✭markodaly



    So you therefore support the IDF's way to act on regime change?



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,988 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling




  • Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭Jimi H


    It laid out a vision for mass displacement at the end of its war with Hamas: establishing tent cities in Egypt, creating a humanitarian corridor, then building cities in the northern Sinai to house the refugees for the long term, with a security zone to prevent Palestinians from returning to Gaza. 

    Sinai is a sparsely populated peninsula, its interior a largely inhospitable desert that has been the subject of past conflicts and negotiations between Israel and Egypt. 

    The document deemed the plan to be the best option for Israel’s security in the wake of Hamas’ deadly Oct. 7 terrorist attack, while acknowledging that the proposal “is liable to be complicated in terms of international legitimacy.”



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,909 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I'll address one point in that. White phosphorous. From the Lieber Institute:

    "There is no per se prohibition on the use of white phosphorous. For instance, a March 2009 HRW report notes that “[w]hen used properly in open areas, white phosphorous munitions are not illegal.” A 2017 article in the New York Times likewise noted that “it is not illegal under international law for militaries to possess and use white phosphorus.” The military manuals of several States indicate that it may be used lawfully, even as an anti-personnel weapon, in certain circumstances (e.g., United States (§ 6.14.2.1), Canada (para. 521.3.), France (p. 20-21), Germany (paras. 453-458), and Australia (paras. 4.30-31))."

    "The use of white phosphorus munitions, even in an urban environment, would not violate international law per se. Instead, because there is no weapons control treaty that prohibits their use altogether, any use of the munitions would have to be evaluated against the law of armed conflict’s conduct of hostilities rules. In this case, Israel has denied reports that the IDF used white phosphorus munitions in Gaza. However, even if they had been used, the lawfulness of their use would depend on the facts and surrounding circumstances, as is the case with all attacks."

    So, not clear whether the use of white phosphorous in this situation is a war crime.

    By the way, the law of armed conflict is absolutely clear on a number of issues, one of those is the taking of civilian hostages. There is no doubt about war crimes committed by Hamas.

    I could address all your other points but they are the outcome of swallowed propaganda.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,827 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    The numbers are just getting far too shockingly high people need to come up with ways to discredit them so they can keep saying all the bombing is justified and proportionate.

    We've seen various western countries appealing for ceasefires, Biden seemingly trying to pull Israel back etc... They wouldn't be doing that if the civilian death toll was 'reasonable' or 'proportionate'



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,631 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    But now, today...Israel is "deliberately targeting innocent women and children and butchering them to death"

    That is not the case actually



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,988 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Their way? As I said in the breadcrumb of this quote-re-quote: no I haven't seen the establishment of any 5th column effort by US or Israel inside Gaza. I do not support their way of regime change I don't see how it is regime change here, it's not going after the leaders of Hamas, they're in a suite somewhere in Qatar. It's mostly going after Hamas, it has been argued, but 40%~ has also, reportedly, been children. In as many other posts I already indicated how I feel this result doesn't usher in regime change it will cement regimes in place for another generation. It's already recruitment pulp in the arab world.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,909 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Of course. Will you stop making allegations of war crimes that you have no evidence of or understanding of the law to back them up?



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,631 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    It is called Regime change, something you support.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,988 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    So was Rwanda.

    So was WW2.

    So is Ukraine.

    With all due respect: This sentiment that its war means nothing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,427 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    We are agreed that war crime guilt or innocence should be left to the experts then.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,631 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    OK so you want regime change but you don't want any civilians to die in the process.

    That is pure fantasy.


    Now, how does one achieve that let us know. The whole world would like to know that secret.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,103 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    ....but is not accountable to the millions of palestinians that suffer its rule. Thats not modern western democracy. It is, however, very similar to apartheid.

    The PLO in the West Bank have less real powers than a county council. You might take better note of the constant raids, settler violence and land grabs that are a daily occurrence there.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,909 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Correct.

    There is a possibility that Israel will engage in ethnic cleansing, however they would have to have control of the territory in order to do that. There is no evidence that they have control of the territory yet, and there is no evidence of engagement in ethnic cleansing subsequent to control of the territory.

    It is just another example of words being thrown around willy-nilly by those looking for any reason to criticise Israel.



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