New Native Tree Area Scheme

onrail · 05-11-2023 4:56pm #1

Saw this in the journal this week

https://www.teagasc.ie/crops/forestry/grants/native-tree-area-scheme/

Seems fairly straightforward and generous if you have a watercourse running through the land (as we do). €45k tax free over 10 years not to be sniffed at.

I was going to apply for the second tranche of Acres, but this seems a far easier way to access to a few euro, unless I'm missing something?

kollegeknight · 05-11-2023 5:31pm

You loose anc and organic payments for that area.

afaik usc is on that too.

minerleague · 05-11-2023 5:44pm

Was thinking of this too, will only be able to do 1HA as I think all along river bank is SAC here which rules out 2nd HA. Also if your land is deemed good from diversity point of view you wont be allowed plant there ( replacing one with another ) as far as I'm aware

amacca · 05-11-2023 6:12pm

How much would it cost to plant the two hectares of trees? Would it eat up most of the initial grant?

kollegeknight · 05-11-2023 6:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121328628#Comment_121328628

There’s a grant to plant it at the beginning

minerleague · 05-11-2023 6:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121328628#Comment_121328628

If you put the full 1 Ha in one area then grant ( separate to premium ) will more than cover costs ( even better if you fence it and plant it yourself ) but if you split it into a few smaller plots fencing costs might go over grant was the way it was put at a farmwalk I was on

Water John · 05-11-2023 6:36pm

Well on a per hectare basis, 1,100 trees @ €2.5/3, plus €2 for guard and bamboo/stake. About €5K. Get a dibble bar to take some of the backache out of setting them. Establishment grant €6,700. Not a lot for your labour.

Land ceases to be agricultural I presume. €2,200/Ha annually versus €1,360/Ha annually from Acres. As a farmer, I'd be reluctant to change the land designation. If that doesn't bother you, fine.

amacca · 05-11-2023 6:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121328724#Comment_121328724

That's what I was thinking tbh

148multi · 05-11-2023 8:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121328724#Comment_121328724

Will anyone ever be allowed to harvest them eventually.

A government TD said a few years ago that all grant aided trees would only be used in furniture or construction.

Water John · 05-11-2023 8:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121329259#Comment_121329259

The point may be that the carbon stored in them, shouldn't be released.

148multi · 05-11-2023 11:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121329307#Comment_121329307

That was the very point mentioned.

TheClubMan · 05-11-2023 11:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121329259#Comment_121329259

I'm pretty sure when I was reading through it the other evening, those trees planted under the scheme cannot be harvested. It sounds enticing for the first 10 years but then that 1 hectare of land won't make you any money thereafter. Is that correct?

CramCycle · 05-11-2023 11:34pm

Interestingly, anyone converting to forestry from grassland will probably release a load of carbon from the soil. After 10 years, can you just change usage again or what happens?

GSBellew · 05-11-2023 11:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121330105#Comment_121330105

What happens to the trees after the ten years, do you just maintain the forest ad infinitum?

Are the trees state property?

minerleague · 06-11-2023 12:37pm

I believe its classified as forestry same as if you put in big plantation - will be able to thin in time but has to remain as forestry. They are trying to push agroforestry ( can claim BPS, agroforestry, organics all on the same land). You can plant a few different ways now to improve use of land under agroforestry ( 10m gap between rows, or trees bunched in small groups)

alps · 06-11-2023 2:19pm

Be comfortable with the small print. Do you retain full rights and ownership after the scheme comes to an end? Can you reconstitute the land, grow another or alternative crop? Do you resrve the right to amy carbon offsets/credits during and after the scheme ends? Is there a risk that you will incur future costs, insurance etc, or replanting if burned in a fire?

White Clover · 06-11-2023 4:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121332088#Comment_121332088

Is it true that you loose all rights to carbon offsets/credits if receiving grant aid for purchase / installation of equipment to do so?

tabby aspreme · 06-11-2023 4:49pm

This new scheme has to comply with the 2014 forestry act, regarding replanting etc, so it will have to remain as forestry.

I see that you can plant at up to a 3m spacing which would reduce the quality of the trees from a commercial point, and push out the need for thinning till the trees are 20-30 years old.

The tree nurseries have risen their prices a lot in the last few years, oak was around €550 / 1000 back in 2018 with Birch and Alder around €400 / 1000

Water John · 06-11-2023 6:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121331561#Comment_121331561

No real agroforestry scheme available TMK. What Jim McAdams had in NI proves that one could have spaced rows of trees without affecting the crop in the field. That would clearly be the way to go, but this clash between Dept of Ag and Forestry on land designation needs to end.

I thought the distance between the rows should be 24m, but maybe I have that figure wrong. I was looking at a 3m mower having 8 runs between tree rows.

minerleague · 06-11-2023 6:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333461#Comment_121333461

Think 10m between rows was biggest mentioned ( not 100% sure ) but it would be hard to get 400 trees/ Ha at anything much above that? Teagasc forestry specialist gave talk

Water John · 06-11-2023 8:57pm

A square Ha 100m x 100m, at my spacing one gets five lines, at your spacing minerleague 11 lines, 33 trees in each line. 33 x 5 = 165 trees, 33 x 11 = 363 trees. The lines are planted North - South. One could have a crop of hazelnuts, cherries or apples, plus carbon sequestration, without affecting output of grassland. It certainly would create a different landscape and habitat.

148multi · 07-11-2023 3:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121330184#Comment_121330184

I think as part of the felling licence you have to replant, but everyone does not.

Hard to follow a company that buys forestry land, eventually clearfells and then sells it on.

OrangeBadger · 07-11-2023 9:44pm

So below is the most important part to work out, if you use "deer shelters" you can get away with planting 465 trees per hectare, now is a deer shelter just one of those plastic tubes? if so then happy days, these shelters would also seem to work for the below section with regards to protection against grazing. you want to be able to graze your sheep in the section you have planted, i have been planting my land with trees for years and sheep do zero damage as long as the tree and protective cover are tied to a stake.

find the wettest hectare on your land and go with scenario 2

"Alder (50%), birch (30%), oak (15%) and other native species (5%). Alder and birch to be planted in pure groups (30-40 trees), with groups interspersed alternately. Oak to be planted in small pure groups, focusing on the dryer parts of the plot. (Changes + or – 25% for each species will be accepted.)"

So increase the alder by 25% so it's 62% alder, alder will grow in very wet/**** ground and will noticeably improve it over time.

"2.10.2 Protection Against Grazing Sites must be fully protected from the time of planting. All existing fences and boundaries must be to a standard which excludes domestic stock and protects the emerging forest. Additionally, sites must be protected from other grazing animals, including deer, feral goats, rabbits and hares, as required. The fencing requirements for this scheme are the same as those applied to the Afforestation Scheme and specified in the Forestry Standards Manual. However, given the small size and linear perimeter area ratio of the NTAS interventions deer fencing will not be eligible for grant aid. The use of tree guards will be more appropriate for the NTAS. As well as protecting against grazing, tree guards also highlight the location of individual trees, for follow-up maintenance. All protective measures should be inspected on a regular basis, with maintenance carried out, as required. "

"2.6 Tree Planting Rate and Layout The tree species mix and composition are defined by two Native Tree Area Scenarios. A minimum tree planting spacing of 3 m x 3 m is required, giving a planting density of 1,100 trees per hectare. Where the installation of deer shelters is necessary a minimum tree spacing of 4 m X 4 m is required giving a planting density of 465 trees per hectare."

blue5000 · 09-11-2023 12:12pm

Will there be any commercial value in the timber with this scheme at all?

Mickeroo · 09-11-2023 12:18pm

This is kind of piquing my interest, how much up front costs would one except to get everything planted and grant eligible?

I recently inherited a small bit of land (very small, 0.66 hectare I think), my brother uses it for sheep grazing at the minute but something like this would appeal to me. Don't really care about making money off it but would be no harm to have a little bit coming out of it, I just really like the idea of converting it to native woodland.

tabby aspreme · 09-11-2023 2:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121345625#Comment_121345625

If there was any potential to build on the plot for yourself or a family member I wouldn't get the Forestry Service involved. You could buy a 1000 trees for € 800 and plant them yourself, spot spray around each tree for the first 2 years and you would have your native woodland without the hassle of the Forestry Service, and the forever forestry stipulation

tabby aspreme · 09-11-2023 2:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121345608#Comment_121345608

It would be limited, with the wide spacings most trees would be slow to grow and will grow outward as well as up

Mickeroo · 09-11-2023 2:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346136#Comment_121346136

No intention of building on it at the minute but wouldn't want to rule it out completely in the future. That's great information, thanks a million.

tesla_newbie · 10-11-2023 9:23pm

I’ve a small bit of land and I understand this scheme is available to those with no entitlements and that no licence is required

question however, can those in organic join the native tree scheme?

Water John · 10-11-2023 10:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121352752#Comment_121352752

I think so, but that land would then be lost to other scheme payments for all time. I'm not prepared to do that. I've tied 2Ha into Acres but that can go back into my organic payment after the five years.

Base price · 14-11-2023 11:35pm

This scheme has me interested although I don't know the ins, outs and ramifications. I reckon most livestock farmers (including ourselves) could afford to set aside a hectare. I've just downloaded DAFM T&C's and will have read through them over the next few days.

New Native Tree Area Scheme

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