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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,446 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    JGP I feel was the critical element in how our system misfired. We had no difficulty getting into the NZ 22. In the opening 20, that folks have characterized as a disaster, we had two attacks on their line that we fluffed. His execution in this crucial area was really poor by his standards, and ended up squandering great positions.

    Post edited by AbusesToilets on


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    The difficulty of the match resulted in mistakes, it was the same for both teams but Ireland were slightly worse, New Zealand got a couple of easy scores due to lapses in defence that were well below the standards set in recent years. Staying in the fight to the end showed they didn’t bottle it, they definitely weren’t anywhere near their best, but every close game will be littered with small moments that could’ve changed the result.

    I do wonder if they’d gone with a stronger back row would they have been better off, McCarthy and Henderson as locks, Beirne, O’Mahony, Doris or Beirne, Doris, Conan with O’Mahony off the bench might have been a better match for NZ. I thought Van der Flier had very little impact on the game, but would have to watch it again. Baird for some reason was left out, think he was worth a run.

    4 Henderson, 5 McCarthy,

    6 Beirne, 8 Conan, 7 Doris

    19 Baird, 20 O’Mahony.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,544 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    The academies are already national in that all the contracts are direct irfu contracts and all the coaches are irfu contracts.

    I don’t like the idea of a national academy if that means players don’t train with senior players in the province.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,544 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    I think scoreboard pressure knocked us off plan. Usually we kick alot more and we should have maintained confidence in that.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Yup, he was not great and he is in many ways more important to our game than even Sexton was.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,544 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    I watched the game again and i really think that NZ identified that playing an even more pure version of our usual game plan could work against us. It kind of makes sense as their back 3 does have the capacity to win kicking battles against us which no other team has really done.

    Then, in the actual game they put us under scoreboard pressure and instead of us trusting the normal plan we tried to keep the ball way too much.

    I honestly think we are a clearly more talented team and that game was a bit of an aberration. But at the same time, they played so close to their peak and exploited every chance.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,459 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    We got a couple of easy scores due to lapses in defence ourselves. There's no way Aki, superhuman as he was throughout the world cup, should have run through five defenders to score.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    I think that's the thing, New Zealand just weren't very good. That's why it hurts so bad.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,559 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Excellent research Neil.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    Couple of easy scores? Which other score was easy? And Aki beat the defender with a good side step and a strong carry close to their line where their defence was scrambling to cover space.

    I wouldn’t really equate that with the system failure off the lineout that led to their try or for leaving acres of space on the wing for Savea to go over untouched.

    The feeling after the game was Ireland dominated most of the game and had to work much harder to get points but NZ got a few sucker punches without having to do much. The penalty against Murray was a soft penalty too, Keenan claimed a magnificent high ball and Jordie Barrett threw himself down to make a meal of barely any contact I thought.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    The Gibson Park try was exceptionally soft. Jordan made a terrible defensive read where he doesn't commit to JGP because he is worried about Lowe, despite Lowe being clearly covered by Barrett and falls off the tackle on a scrum half. If he makes that tackle JGB is isolated and Savea is steaming in for the penalty turnover.

    Those "sucker punches" aren't a fluke either, they were a direct consequence of NZ selecting superior athletes to Ireland, particularly in the backs. Ireland prioritised system players and cohesion over pace and as with most decisions at the top level you gain and lose based on that selection.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    You're painting it as black and white, when the reality is there's a whole spectrum. Nerves does automatically not mean bottled / choked.

     Some were trying to deny this happened. Including some high profile ex players

    At least you've rowed back from claiming ex-players were saying they "choked" when you couldn't find a single one that did.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Brilliant post, Neil.

    I think one large part of it was that Hansen didn't seem to be 100% following his injury either, and he has become such an important part of our attack that just hampered us even further.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,358 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    So if I’m reading this right we got some easy points due to lapses and NZ got easy points because Ireland choked?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    I didn't say ex players said they choked, I said they meant that using different words. Same with the affected by nerves phrase used on this thread, it means the same thing. Now we even have some stats to back it up. We didn't play the way we've been playing for the last 2 years. The occasion got the better of most of our players. Sexton missing a kick is an obvious example but him not orchestrating attacks as normal is a less obvious sign.

    So you can avoid calling it choking or deny it ever happened or whatever you want but the stats and the views of some ex players and pundits state that we had 'a sub-optimal sporting performance delivered under pressure' (definition of choking).



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I didn't say ex players said they choked, I said they meant that using different words.

    So you know what pundits actually meant... despite them using entirely different words??

    Right....



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    They didn't use entirely different words, they used words that define choking. Are you more comfortable if we just say the players were affected by nerves instead?



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,314 ✭✭✭✭phog


    I'd be concerned if players playing in any knock out game weren't nervous.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Yes. Because nerves and "choking" are at entirely difference points in the spectrum of performance.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    I'd say players get nervous before most matches. That's not what we're discussing. We're discussing a sub-optimal sporting performance delivered when under pressure. That describes Ireland against New Zealand.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    Affected by nerves is the phrase. As above, I'd say most players on all teams have nerves, we're discussing how it affects performance. Do you disagree that Ireland had a sub-optimal sporting performance delivered when under pressure against New Zealand?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    And there are degrees of "affected by nerves". I don't think Ireland's performance was anywhere near the "choking" end of that spectrum.

    Not all performances, affected by nerves equals choking.

    Just like pundits who said we were nervous didn't mean we choked.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,459 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    What is people's accepted definition of choking, on a scale of Missing an easy kick to Jean Van De Velde?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    You're uncomfortable with the term choking, that's fair enough. But you can look up any definition of the term and it means the same as affected by nerves. The Wikipedia definition for example:

    'choking is the failure of a person, or persons, to act or behave as anticipated or expected'

    This is what some pundits have described, some ex players have described, the stats and analysis of the game backs this up. They state that Ireland delivered a sub-optimal sporting performance when under pressure against New Zealand.

    You're free to disagree with the pundits and the stats if you want and you can even disagree with the definition of choking if you want. It's a widely accepted definition though so you'll have a hard time changing it.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I'm not uncomfortable with it. I just think you're wrong.

    Fwiw, one of the pundits you're claiming meant choking literally said "one thing this wasn't was a choke".

    But sure, you know what they meant....



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    You're not arguing with anything I said, you're arguing with the definition of choking. You think it should be defined differently.

    What pundit said that?



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,420 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Id say if they weren't nervous before the game, they certainly were after the first 20 mins when we found ourselves down 13 points having seen our scrum and lineout both misfiring



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Like I said before, all definitions also include caveats like the following:

    The term itself is often an over-used, or even derisive term in the sports world, where "choke" status is assigned to a team or player that was simply unlucky. 

    What pundit said that?

    Shane Horgan. You falsely attributed "choking" to him. Like I said you haven't been able to find a single pundit who actually said "choking".



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    So you don't dispute the definition of choking then? Because Shane Horgan and others used the definition to describe our performance against New Zealand.

    Like I said, choking seems like a harsh word. As a friend to the players, of course Horgan wouldn't want to use that word. It would make him uncomfortable like it makes you and others uncomfortable.

    It doesn't mean that the players didn't underperform under pressure. Many supporters and pundits thought we underperformed under pressure. This means choking but as I said, I have no problem using phrases like 'affected by nerves' or 'underperformed under pressure' if it's more palatable.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Underperformed ≠ choking.



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