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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,743 ✭✭✭PommieBast


    When I was a greenhorn I was sent to Oman on a business trip. My two cans of coke cost more than the 25 litres of gas my boss put into the car. 'nuff said.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭ginger22




  • Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭deholleboom


    The advantage of SMRs is that they are...small. A company might actually invest in those if the product has a chance of success and the barriers not too high. Current large investment modern reactors technology is well known and work and should be sponsored. The return on investment is long term and stable. China is able to make them in about 5-6 years fr start to finish. Canada is doing pretty well. France on the other hand has a lot of old ones but invest in other countries. Germany is..well, never mind. Compare those facilities to wind and solar installations f land use alone and it becomes pretty clear it HAS to be part of the energy mix as there is no one panacea. Have an EU/US/ world conference (like a nuclear COP) to come up with a few models w the highest safety and efficiency levels so countries can roll them out without having the current barrage of barriers put in front of them. Critics will point to the limitations of nuclear energy. Fair enough.To them i say: make a summary list of all the pros and cons of every energy production source from start to finish and we'll see. I actually see some people are starting to think that way now that green tech keeps hitting the reality wall. Wasnt Bill Gates talking about this recently? Things shift..

    Post edited by deholleboom on


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,032 ✭✭✭Shoog


    So you don't consider the natural end of an ice age climate change. It's actually the climate change deniers who think that climate simply changes without any cause like magic.

    There is always a cause for climate change, just this time it's us.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,032 ✭✭✭Shoog


    There are no SMR reactors in production. Recently the British government pulled out of backing Rolls Royces proposed SMR program - which shows there are still significant technical challenges to develop a cost effective unit.

    But the real kicker is two fold, SMR units are less efficient and so produce considerably more expensive to manage nuclear waste, they are also a defuse security risk which makes the cost of managing security significantly greater. These two factors alone are enough to kill the whole sector dead before it even begins.

    Ireland will not invest in the two conventional nuclear power plants it would need so it will never get out of the discussions boards as a future plan.

    Green tech has hit the commodities inflation wall which has made many of its in the pipe line projects unviable. Such things as labour shortages are pushing just about all infrastructure projects into unviable costings scenarios and that includes nuclear projects which have similarly seen cost sore. The reality is though that nuclear doesn't operate in a competitive market so governments just tend to suck up the spiraling costs without talking about it - the sunk cost falacy.

    As for France, the poster boy for nuclear, it's whole sector has costed it decommissioning cycle at such a rediciulously low price that when the chickens come home to roost (all together in a very short window) it will place such a burden on the government who will have to pick up the bill, as EDS will inevitably have to declare bankruptcy, that it will cripple an already struggling economy. The temptation will be to just keep extending the service life into the future until the inevitable catastrophy forces their hand.

    Post edited by Shoog on


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,551 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    The reality is though that nuclear doesn't operate in a competitive market so governments just tend to suck up the spiraling costs without talking about it - the sunk cost falacy.

    Isn't this true of renewable too?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,055 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    That may be the case of concern for cities like Tokyo. That is also why use of face masks due to smog is common in places like that.

    Our largest city do not even make it to top 100 and being also coastal city there is no reason to be afraid. And please do not even try pandemic favorite slogan "one death is one death too many" as it seems EU do not care about it much otherwise they would not pump money and guns to the Ukraine.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,032 ✭✭✭Shoog


    As I said it's entirely up to you how important you feel 1300 deaths in Ireland per year is from poor air quality.

    https://www.epa.ie/publications/monitoring--assessment/air/Air-Quality-in-Ireland-2020.pdf



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,551 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    I see the limit on Dublin Airport passengers is going to be challenged in order to grow it. Great news for aviation emissions

    https://www.businesspost.ie/news/varadkar-scrap-dublin-airport-cap-or-irish-economy-will-suffer/



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,055 ✭✭✭patnor1011



    Exactly. Not only SUV's were hard to find there also would be no cows to cull.

    Additionally, if mother nature decides to light a fuse of Krakatoa or Santorini (or another major volcano) all the reductions of human CO2 emissions will become meaningless…



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,032 ✭✭✭Shoog


    One off volcanic eruptions are entirely different to the constant man made emissions, even a massive erruption from one of the larger volcanos would be out of the picture after a decade or so - not so the constant emissions of man.

    It seems that the fact that climate changes naturally is the big gotcha for some people, but by study natural climate we understand when unnatural climate change is influencing the climate. It's not a gotcha at all - it's the proof that we are influencing climate out of its natural patterns.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,743 ✭✭✭PommieBast


    Well EDF et al are all-in on the EPR and need the megabucks megaprojects like Hinkley Point C to survive, so they will fight tooth and nail to make sure that the SMR guys like Rolls Royce don't get a lookin. This is even before considering the renewables lobby.

    As for the technology itself I don't see why it would take long to scale up a submarine PWR and get it approved as a self-contained unit, but it was not the technology I'm commenting on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,055 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    Incorrect on so many levels.

    First of all, average volcano eruption put out so much different and more dangerous chemicals that talking about CO2 is pointless. Second thing is that ridiculous notion that CO2 is responsible for climate change when all what it is is a made up scapegoat to spread irrational fear to push forward green fascism.

    There are dangerous and even deadly man made chemicals and pollutants being dumped left and right which endanger life of humans, plants and animals. CO2 is not one of them.

    Our obsession with plastics for example did more damage to planet and life than CO2 ever could.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,551 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    Few things I've learnt from this:

    • ANC and organic payments, if you are in receipt of these, are not eligible on this land
    • Areas in SAC are not eligible
    • Land that already has good "diversity" is not eligible. The goal is to take low diversity, productive land into this scheme (productive grassland/tillage/horticulture)
    • A grant is available for the planting of trees which is separate to this scheme
    • Land ceases to be agricultural land, which will impact on tax during any transfer of ownership (can't avail of agri. reliefs, etc)
    • Change to this payment from ACRES would be a ~€800 more for the 10 year period, with no payments after that (where ACRES or it's successor would likely continue via CAP)
    • There is no mention of permission to harvest, therefore it's unclear if they could ever be harvested. It looks like the carbon they store can't be released in future. However, if harvested, I'd assume the same rules would apply as are there today where anything removed would need to be replaced with no state supports for doing so.

    The headline figure sounds great, but the detail then not so much. You are transferring land to forestry for ever, devaluing that part, losing tax reliefs and any subsequent payments, introducing future costs for managing/replanting and all for a 10 year payment marginally higher than ACRES (rate is smaller again if you lose organic status too). The loss of tax relief on change of ownership more than negates the 10 year payments too.

    It sounds like a cheap way to devalue land on people.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭KildareP


    And again with the double standards:

    • There are no suitably large hyrolisys plants, nor has anyone managed to store, transport and produce electricity from hydrogen at anything close to the scale needed for even a small grid like ours but apparently it's still a wonderful idea on which to form future generation needs
    • Blanketing the land and sea with as many wind turbines and solar as possible and building in huge capacity fluctuations into the grid infratructure to try and capture as much of the wind that does blow and sun that does shine (oh but traditional nuclear reactors generate too much electricity) is not exactly efficiency personified. Sure, the "energy" is "free" but the infrastructure costs are anything but and by jaysus is that an infrastructure heavy undertaking
    • Granted, the potential danger of a nuclear disaster far exceeds that of a hydrogen explosion or BESS fire, but whether we like it or not our two closest neighbours are already using nuclear to the extent that a problem for them is just as much a problem for us. Refusing to even consider it based on ideological reasons is about as sensible as thinking we're going to lead by example and change the world view on climate change. (By the way we'll still quite happily tap into that nuclear energy, ta very much!)
    • And to top it all off, if we're not prepared to invest in two conventional nuclear power plants as an example, what on earth makes you think we'd be any more prepared to invest in what an all renewable grid would entail? Perhaps that's why no-one advocating for one will put anything resembling a predicted cost on one completed and fully functioning renewable grid...

    As for your competitive market comment - don't make me laugh! Fossil fuel is one of the most taxed commodities in this country, yet renewable producers are guaranteed first dibs into the energy market while still being paid as much per MWh as the fossil generators of last resort get with absolutely none of the input fuel costs. Not only that, put the PSO is literally a subsidy that is being tunnelled straight into renewable energy resources, the total or end game cost of which no-one seems to want to talk about with the added bonus it's the paying public on the hook, not "the government". Sunk cost fallacy indeed...



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,032 ✭✭✭Shoog


    As soon as you dismissed co2 as a climate change driver I stopped reading.



  • Registered Users Posts: 473 ✭✭Ramasun


    Until we get an undersea tunnel and high speed rail link to a major international airport with inter-continental routes we're stuck with Dublin Airport as an essential part of the economy, emissions and all.

    We could shut down some of the Regional airports to offset Dublin's emissions and banning Cruise Ships from Ireland would be another idea.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,551 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    I agree. Though what is being said here is that the economy is more important than the climate, despite there being a climate emergency and legally binding reduction targets and increasing aviation emissions despite them being the leaders in emissions, as well as transport emissions going the wrong way despite the planned reductions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,551 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    Some here believe that plans, commitments and targets can't change. The previous main man behind the EUs climate policies who left to run for prime minister of the Netherlands isn't of such a mindset

    Elections can change things. More of this sort of stuff can be expected



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,593 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    I don't expect you to, after all, you are adhering to the rules of transition club.

    1. We do not talk about the problems.
    2. Facts are obsolete. Only the transition matters.
    3. Tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it.
    4. If it’s failing, double down.
    5. Words and numbers are weapons.
    6. Questions are denial.

    You don't need to agree with Michauxs conclusions, I don't. His background is mining and it is difficult to refute that there are not enough minerals available, and the cost of processing lower ore grades means the cost of the build-out envisioned is not feasible. Fundamentally, this limit is a problem Cleantechnicas business model (advertising "green" tech.), logically they will subject his claims to their scrutiny. When you start looking around the explosion in costs has the wind turbine developers reeling, projects are being cancelled and the companies are trying to twist politicians arms to get the people who use the electricity service to pay more.

    Politicians are beginning to realise they cannot realise legislation that defies the laws of physics, anymore than King Canute could command the waves. As problems with energy bite, they are slowly coming to their senses as the voting public increasingly realises this is not an all gain, no pain story, we are being put on the hook for the costs involved transitioning a complex system that was build up over 100 years in a 30 year window with technology that can not meet todays expectations and never will deliver on them. No getting away from the limit that the lower the power density, the greater the resource intensity.

    Leaving aside the limits on mineral production, there will be no green jobs boom, there are not enough skilled people that can be trained to build out or maintain an all electric grid in that time-frame. This is already becoming apparent, in other countries where there are not enough skilled technicians available to maintain even EV charging stations.

    Everyone wants to use an affordable reliable electricity service, there are multiple levels of tradeoffs in how that service is generated. Netzero as envisioned is a dead end.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭ginger22




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Its funny how some are concerned about "the limits on mineral production" yet this concern does not extend to fossil fuels which are not infinite. Regardless of how long you believe fossil fuels have left to run (50, 100, 200 years) they will run out

    Whats the plan in x years when it does run out or become so rare as to be unaffordable?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,593 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    As the oil sheik said, the stone age did not end because the world ran out of stones. Hydrocarbons will always be around. they are too versatile to not be used. Current government energy policies that deliberately strangle oil and gas production, with no practical alternative in place are destined to fail, and fail spectacularly. It is why I am watching German energy and industrial politics with interest, the closure of nuclear power in that country is one of the greatest own goals in history.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Interesting to note that the collapse of diesel sales is not limited to Ireland. This is the UK in Oct, came across it on twitter

    Did a bit of digging around and here are some others

    For the EU as a whole

    Diesel cars now have a market share of 12.7%, down from 15.9% in September of the previous year.

    Depending on the country selected, diesel is either on the way to deaths door or virtually dead

    Petrol is also dropping share rapidly but has a ways to go yet

    This all bodes well for air quality all across the bloc



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,593 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    By that token, stones are not infinite either. Maybe you are one of those people who promote the abiotic theory of the origin of oil or can explain how dinosaur juice is found on Titan. Maybe you believe the wind always blows somewhere fallacy can power an electrical grid. Maybe the supply of fresh water is infinite, and you can produce infinite hydrogen using wind turbines.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,032 ✭✭✭Shoog


    I don't waste time on people living in a fantasy world. The science is established and if you proceed from the belief that CO2 isn't a climate change driver you are delusional.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭ginger22


    Exactly as I said "typical green tunnel vision"



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,032 ✭✭✭Shoog


    If you don't accept basic physics then where is there common ground for a discussion ?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,593 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    When you preceded science with the definite article, you demonstrated that you do not actually understand "basic physics". It is hard for you to discuss basic physics involved, you don't understand it.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



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