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Helmets - the definitive thread.. ** Mod Note - Please read Opening Post **

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,731 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Not sure if there is a direct source but you can pull the data from multiple sources. HSE and Drugs and Alcohol Ireland have published data showing head injuries in hospitals at being between 25% and 40% related to alcohol intake. Even at the lower end of the scale, that is 500 TBIs per year relating to alcohol intake. Compared to the number of cycling injuries reported in total over a 3 year period which, in hospitalisations, in total, not just TBIs was less than the alcohol related TBIs for one year.

    There are of course, other issues with this, most likely more drinkers than cyclists, but do we include youths, is it one session is equivalent to one spin, are cyclists more or less likely to not report because many already wear helmets, do many drinkers not report because they are too inebriated and so on.

    Long story short, well over 1/4 of all A&E admissions are alcohol related in general, cycling in an urban A&E (presumably very biased) looks like it's roughly 3% but out of that 3%, some left before being even treated, 86 were reported as soft tissue damage and all of this misses the number of hours and euros saved from the HSE by regular cycling, compared to the cost that alcohol consumption brings to the HSE.

    This said, as both an avid cyclist and drinker, I think it is a fair assumption that TBIs aside, cycling is better for your health than drinking. One leads to an increase in the cost on the HSE and puts it under strain, the other reduces the cost on the HSE.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1 PrendyCraig


    It's interesting what you say. And I agree with the "percieved" risk playing a big role in peoples helmet wearing decisions. Of course the netherlands has brilliant bike infrstructure, as a result the percieved risk of cycling is relatively lower. And thats why you'll find that the dutch wear helmets alot less than other EU nations. Which was interesting to me.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    Is it possible also that most people would generally prefer not to wear helmets doing things that carry only a small risk of injury - so if the group doing the 'thing' is small in size... eg cycling... they can be pressured into wearing a helmet by the non-doers, whereas if the majority of people cycle regularly they all essentially look at each other and say/ agree "yeah, not gonna bother wearing this cycling into the office". A type of echo chamber/ confirmation bias thing? Most people don't do the thing = most people saying helmet should be worn. Most people do the thing = most people conclude that they don't need helmets.

    It's a bit like wearing seatbelts in cars v. wearing seatbelts on coaches/ buses... they all have them, but nobody wears them and nobody bangs the drum. Yes, you can talk about risk, but the same point raised re helmets can be parroted back "but surely, if there is even a small risk, the minor inconvenience is worthwhile... why would you not"?

    Just curious about the psychology behind it all and why it gets some people so worked up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,766 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    Relevant post over at "Journalism and Cycling 2":

    Summary from there:

    --

    Main findings

    • Mandating helmets may contribute to the perception of bike riding as an unsafe activity.
    • Bike riders recognise that mandatory helmet legalisation does not tackle the risk of injury at its root.
    • Helmets help bike riders manage the risk in their physical environment in the absence of policy changes to improve safety.
    • Mandatory helmet legislation contributes to feelings of judgement and victim blaming experienced by bike riders.
    • Interviewees felt that bicycle helmets dehumanise bike riders which could lead to further violence against them.

    --



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,623 ✭✭✭traco


    Its interesting alright. I wll wear one on the commute and road bike but don't when popping round the corner to the shop or gym, all within 1km. No real clue behind my logic as I am probably as likely to take a tumble in the 1km trip as on a longer spin. Maybe I just don't want friends and neighbours to see me with helmet hair??



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,956 ✭✭✭cletus


    I would always wear a helmet if I'm out for a long cycle at the weekend, say.

    But if I'm going to the shops, or a spin around Naas at lunch time or in between classes, I'd never put on a helmet.


    No real reasoning on my behalf for this



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,371 ✭✭✭TheAnalyst_


    Never wear one. They look dumb.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    Each to their own, but given their intended purpose that would be pretty much bottom of my list of reasons for not wearing one.

    Caliper and disc brakes are ugly to varying degrees, but you wouldn't catch me riding a pure fixie on the roads.



  • Registered Users Posts: 788 ✭✭✭fiacha


    I always wear one. I already look like a prat in lycra so adding a helmet to the outfit doesn't bother me :D

    I don't expect it to work miracles, but I'll always wear PPE if there is a chance of it reducing / preventing injury in certain situations. Same goes for working with tools , chemicals etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,956 ✭✭✭cletus


    That might be part of it. If I'm pulling on bib shorts and a jersey, I'll put on a helmet too. If I'm tucking the right leg of my jeans into my sock to go for a bit of a meander, or get some milk, it won't even cross my mind.

    I might pull on a cycling cap, but that's just pure affectation 🤣



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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,232 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    They don't look nearly as dumb as the person lying death on side of the road with their head split open. I have never seen a study that says even if you wear a helmet your are as like as not to have your head split open.

    I never wore a helmet until I say my neighbour lying dead on the side of the road as result of have split her head on a kerb stone about 200m from her home. There was no other car involved, it is believed she just clipped the edge of parked car and went splatter into the footpath. She was the mother of three young children and was just on the way to the shops.

    Now everyone on my street wear a helmet when they out on their bikes.



  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,481 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,371 ✭✭✭TheAnalyst_


    How dumb do think poeple look split in two under the wheel of a truck?



  • Registered Users Posts: 788 ✭✭✭fiacha


    Nope, I don't feel the need for fall / impact protection when out walking. I do believe that there is a far greater risk of a head injury if I have a fall or collision while on the bike so it makes perfect sense to me to wear a helmet.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,345 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    my behaviour sounds similar to many above - i wear one when out on the bike for the sake of a bike ride (which usually last an hour or more) but if i'm running an errand, i don't. more likely



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Strange how people who witness gory car crashes don't suddenly become enthusiastic converts to wearing crash helmets in the car.



  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,481 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal



    More pedestrians have been killed this year then cyclists or escooter users combined several times over, there's certainly a benefit to be had.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,956 ✭✭✭cletus


    Well, you're extrapolating from data we don't have. How many pedestrians were struck and not killed, how many cyclists were struck and not killed, how many had helmets on, what's the ratio of pedestrians to cyclists, and how does that compare to the ratio of deaths between the two etc.


    You can't just say helmets have saved lives because more pedestrians than cyclists were killed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 788 ✭✭✭fiacha


    All of these pedestrian fatalities were as a result of head injuries that could have been prevented by wearing a helmet ? Do you have anything to support your claim ? If so, you should be going to the media and Gov highlighting it. Fair play to you for putting all that work in. Very impressive.

    *added "pedestrian" to clarify which fatalities I was referring to.

    Post edited by fiacha on


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,851 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    I know a helmet saved my daughter from a serious dash on her head when she fell off and hit the curve.

    They do offer protection, but not going to protect you from eveything.


    Why do professional cyclists wear them or have to wear them?



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,345 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Most people won't argue that if you're going to hit your head, that you'd be better off without a helmet than with one. The question is that is the focus on them while cycling (which has to be the only everyday activity where wearing one is considered de rigeur by the public at large) justified?

    Anecdotally speaking, I know more people who died of head injuries while hillwalking than I know who suffered the same fate cycling (the number of people I know is one, FWIW). And I know more cyclists than I do hillwalkers. And I'm certainly not arguing that hillwalkers should wear helmets.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,345 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Why do professional cyclists wear them or have to wear them?

    Comparing racing cycling - where average speeds would probably be more than double the average commuting cyclist speed - while also doing so in bunch sprints, etc., is not a comparison which stretches very far. Like comparing mandatory safety equipment used in Motorsport which is not required in a family car.



  • Registered Users Posts: 788 ✭✭✭fiacha


    IMO we are all responsible for our own personal safety. As long as your decision doesn't put someone else at risk, then do what you want.

    If helmet / hi-viz requirements were introduced tomorrow, how long would it be before it stopped being enforced regularly ? I rememeber seeing a good few commuters being stopped for a few weeks after the cycling specific fines came in, but I haven't seen it happen since. Do others see cyclists being stopped at all ?

    I'd much rather see the Gov put focus on highly visible and consistant enforcement of the existing regulations relating to all road users. However that will involve an increase in the number of Gardai (and a kick up the hole for the existing ones that don't bother enforcing the current laws :D), so unlikely to happen.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    If we're holding up pro cycling as the gold standard of safety for the rest of us, you probably don't want to consider the requirements for F1, Rallycross or any other professional motor sport...



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    Like the gardai I saw cruise through the amber-turning-red lights on my lunch break a few minutes ago? Nobody gives a s**t about road safety, if we're honest. Which is what p!sses cyclists off about being lectured to by motorists, the RSA and the Gardai.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,513 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    IMO we are all responsible for our own personal safety.

    That is a widely incorrect statement because it ignores the fact that while one can do everything to protect their personal safety, they cannot get others to follow suit. This is why some drivers will deliberately take chances with my safety because they are prioritising their convenience (or in some cases it is just plain old malice).



  • Registered Users Posts: 788 ✭✭✭fiacha


    You left a bit of my comment out.

    "IMO we are all responsible for our own personal safety. As long as your decision doesn't put someone else at risk, then do what you want."



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,513 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I didn't really. I am being responsible for my safety and my decision is not putting someone at risk.

    What your statement is doing is still putting the onus for my safety on me and ignores the reality that because we've allowed a piss poor level of road traffic enforcement to develop, people driving feel that they can treat me on a bike with disdain knowing that they will get away with it. If I did choose to report them, there is a very high probability that nothing will happen because I didn't die or something.

    You are assuming that everyne else will drive with due care and attention when we know that they are allowed not to.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,731 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Actually, there are several, maybe not using your evocative language but at a population level, wearing helmets and not wearing helmets makes no noticeable difference to head injuries.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,731 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Seen a lad stopped for cycling on the pavement in Wexford the other day. Over the moon as he was dropping me with ease. It was south of the town with no pedestrians so no real danger but good to see it was being enforced.



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