A Woke Society? Mod Warning In Post #435

Geuze · 07-11-2023 1:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121336736#Comment_121336736

Yes.

It's mad that I get blamed for the life outcomes of travellers. It's as if they have no agency.

A serious socialist politician would be honest, and instead of blaming everybody else, would point that a lack of engagement with education and skills will lead to poor outcomes.

ancapailldorcha · 07-11-2023 1:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121336783#Comment_121336783

Can you define "woke"?

tesla_newbie · 07-11-2023 1:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121336785#Comment_121336785

Travellers make what is known as the progressive sacred cow list and therefore most ( if not all) misdemeanours and shortcomings can be blamed on systematic prejudice

it’s actually incredibly condescending towards what are native Irish people

if woke progressives really cared about travellers ( instead of mining them for virtue ) , they would work to see travellers abandon their hugely self damaging “ culture “

but isn’t that the whole basis of wokeness, sounding virtuous, doing something meaningful and transformative is an optional extra

ancapailldorcha · 07-11-2023 1:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121336777#Comment_121336777

Any proof that all genocides began as grievances as per your claim?

silverharp · 07-11-2023 1:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121336773#Comment_121336773

true, the whole class struggle thing at least had some logic. Today you can be some trust fund kid with a university degree and still expect society to treat said person as oppressed. Its basically a posh cope philosophy for losers with a lot of privilege and a magnet for people with dark triad personality traits

tesla_newbie · 07-11-2023 1:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121336796#Comment_121336796

A near religious adherence to approved respectable progressive positions on any given topic

think of these like woke commandments

ancapailldorcha · 07-11-2023 1:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121336825#Comment_121336825

I'll take that as a no.

tesla_newbie · 07-11-2023 1:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121336832#Comment_121336832

Oh my dear boy , you do enjoy employing the same methods repeatedly

ancapailldorcha · 07-11-2023 1:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121336838#Comment_121336838

Ok, then. Who approves these positions? What are their names? How are they elected or appointed?

tesla_newbie · 07-11-2023 1:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121336847#Comment_121336847

this isn’t China or Iran , no singular top down edicts , they take hold , gather momentum and become the “ respectable opinion “ when various influential progressives start employing them and demanding others get in line

celebrities often see embracing them as career wise and this influences youth etc

lumphammer2 · 07-11-2023 1:49pm

'Woke' is a made up term ... by those who want to oppress others who do not share their self given 'right' to criticise others ... the real term for the anti woke brigade is racist ... misogynist ... sectarian ... etc ... the anti-'woke' brigade like to talk about 'free speech' and their 'right to offend' and the like ... they want to stir up trouble ... and they usually are religious nutters or panderers to religious nutters ...

Idiots like Ron de Santis are examples of panderers to the anti wokers ... boasting like 'Florida is where woke comes to die' .... what a loser! I do not think de Santis believes what he says ... but he is pandering to an audience who can be lead along by a Pied piper of Gilead ... Donald Trump is doing the same and leading more people down the Handmaid's Tale rabbithole ... De Santis and Trump could well inspire a tsunami of hatred and fanaticism that would swallow them whole and set America in directions they didn't even intend because of their short-termism and power hungry agendas ... when you empower an out of control mob that is what happens ... January 6th 2021 is just a taste of what these losers could inspire ...

Sadly those who fall for this anti woke agenda do not know where it leads ... it may start off with Covid conspiracies ... then general criticism of the government and then onto more sinister racist and sectarian agendas ... ultimately anti woke leads to WAR ...

Some anti woke world leaders past and present .... Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot, Osama bin Laden, Ali Khamenei/Mojtaba Khamenei, Slobodan Milosevic, Donald Trump, Benjamin Netanyahu .... some anti woke organisations ... the Nazis, Al Qaeda, Taliban, ISIS, Paydari, the Tea Party factions of the Republican Party and their descendants ... enough said ....

ancapailldorcha · 07-11-2023 1:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121336874#Comment_121336874

If you can't define it, just say so.

Shoog · 07-11-2023 1:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121336683#Comment_121336683

By focusing on individuals you can ignore the systemic issues, nice way to stay comfortably ignorant.

tesla_newbie · 07-11-2023 1:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121336878#Comment_121336878

Kitchen sink only thing missing

K-9 · 07-11-2023 2:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121336607#Comment_121336607

Are you being serious?

Shoog · 07-11-2023 2:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121336802#Comment_121336802

Their whole culture was effectively made illegal by the state and they were forced to live in ghettos. That is where the troubles began, but context just muddys the waters of hating the dysfunctional travellers.

K-9 · 07-11-2023 2:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121336908#Comment_121336908

Its like saying, "here's a copy of The Secret, go have positive thoughts and you'll get everything you want". Here's a self-help book while you're at it.

TokTik · 07-11-2023 2:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121335620#Comment_121335620

I asked a question.

Brian? · 07-11-2023 2:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121336717#Comment_121336717

You need to be more precise with your initial statement, my comment was tongue in cheek:

Until the last 30 years, LGBT+ people were treated horrifically everywhere. Now they only have to fear for their lives in parts of Africa and most of Asia.
Women were little more than property in a lot of the world until recently. In some countries they still are.
Sex and children born out of wedlock were heavily stigmatised in the west and still are in large parts of the world
Genital mutilation is traditional in many countries, including North America for men

There are more "traditional norms" I can name that are abhorrent. But I think I have made my point

Brian? · 07-11-2023 2:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121336589#Comment_121336589

I don't reduce people to their group identity, I am woke. Square that.

ancapailldorcha · 07-11-2023 2:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121336989#Comment_121336989

In the USA, gunning down children is both regular and tolerated but the real problem for some people is that the new Spiderman is black.

Brian? · 07-11-2023 2:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121336736#Comment_121336736

Everybody is the primary factor in their own success or failure in life. This is a strong opinion I hold, I haven't seen anything that disproves it yet but I won't claim it as a fact.

Now, because I hold this opinion it doesn't mean I don't also think that some groups have handicaps that meant that they have to work harder to be successful.

This is woke.

Brian? · 07-11-2023 2:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121336978#Comment_121336978

I know you did. I am willing to answer it once you make a poxy point.

"I'm only asking questions" is the worst form of debate.

techdiver · 07-11-2023 2:54pm

A few observations from scanning this thread from someone new to the discussion here.

I considering myself a liberal. I'm a straight white male in his early 40's. Voted in favour of all liberal referenda (abortion, marriage equality act etc). Campaigned for LGB rights in college (back when it was LGB). I have seen discussion here that conflates voting for marriage equality as qualified support for Trans rights. I would not agree with this. I know many people who voted in favour of the above measures that think trans ideology has completely jumped the shark. I'd love to know the line on self identification? Should biological men be entitled to identify as a 6 year old girls?

Someone mentioned a while back that what harm is there is just accepting that people can self identify as what ever they want?

Here is where I stand. I will be polite and not cause undue offense to a trans identified person with a few notable expectations.

A biological male identifying as a woman should not be permitted to use female only facilities (toilets, changing rooms etc). Although I have seen many places change their toilets to sex based as opposed to gender based which is clever.
A biological male identifying as a woman should not be able to complete against biological females in sport.
A biological male should not be permitted into female prisons.

I accept "1" could possibly be addressed by gender neutral safe space (individual locked spaces perhaps), but "2" and "3" are where I draw a firm line and anyone who doesn't believe it is a complete dangerous idiot in my opinion. These are the same people who are not happy with trans rights being improved but it must be at the expense of others especially biological females.

Regarding sport, once you have gone through male puberty you have an irrevocable genetic advantage. In some sports (like running and other track and field sports) that will just result in an unfair playing field but for other sports (contact sports) will results in significant danger to the opposing players.

TokTik · 07-11-2023 3:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337036#Comment_121337036

How can I debate/discuss/make a point about it with you when I don’t know your stance? I asked a question to ascertain your position. I’m not a mind reader. The fact you are so defensive about the question says a lot.

I never said what you have in quotes.

tesla_newbie · 07-11-2023 3:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121336954#Comment_121336954

Nonsense , the state has bent over backwards indulging them

Brian? · 07-11-2023 3:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337226#Comment_121337226

From about 1985 on travelers were treated more equitably by the state. Do we ignore everything that happened before that?

Shoog · 07-11-2023 3:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337155#Comment_121337155

None of that is unreasonable, but that not where most anti-trans people leave it.

Brian? · 07-11-2023 3:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337221#Comment_121337221

You can debate by making a point. I am defensive because I have to put up with too much of this nonsense over the years - that's what it says and nothing else. What else do you THINK it says?

I don't agree with quotas in general, but in very specific circumstances they can be helpful. Happy? No make your point.

j2 · 07-11-2023 3:20pm

So what is the best thing the "woke" have achieved in recent years? What have they gone on to achieve

Brian? · 07-11-2023 3:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337226#Comment_121337226

As a general comment, you seem to have a very narrow view on what we should consider important. Especially when it comes to societal norms. You seem to want to take a snap shot of how society is now and say "this is fine" and somehow that makes it all fine. I don't understand this attitude. When I grew up it was legal for a man to rape his wife and it was illegal for 2 men to have sex. I am only 45, I am not an elder statesman.

Brian? · 07-11-2023 3:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337155#Comment_121337155

I agree about the sport. The prisons, I don't know.

But the bathrooms - why? It's a jacks

K-9 · 07-11-2023 3:27pm

They had quotas for Catholics applying for the PSNI to counter systemic discrimination. Can't see how that was a bad thing myself.

Brian? · 07-11-2023 3:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337334#Comment_121337334

Ireland: marriage equality and repeal the 8th.

Brian? · 07-11-2023 3:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337379#Comment_121337379

One of those circumstances I agree with.

tesla_newbie · 07-11-2023 3:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337317#Comment_121337317

So in other words travellers have gotten a better deal for longer than northern catholics have

you don’t hear about 80% plus unemployment levels amongst Catholics in north

tesla_newbie · 07-11-2023 3:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337343#Comment_121337343

You’re more or less the same age as me , I never remember a time when women here were mistreated and neither does my mother who is seventy five, the notion that we were once like Afghanistan is a fever dream of progressives

in 2023 women are favoured over men in many areas

CalamariFritti · 07-11-2023 4:08pm

A) Respecting (or disrespecting if they're arseholes) other people regardless of their skin colour, religion, health, age, sex, sexual orientation (I hope I didnt forget something) is normal. I dont have to be anyones 'ally' to be respectful and tolerant.

B) Woke is when you do all of the above but tell and berate every one else about it all day long on social media. Potentially with a degree in doing so. And potentially being very intolerant towards people who are happy to do just A but not B.

I suspect a lot of people who wave the woke flag do so for the purpose of self-aggrandisation and self-gratification. But that could just be me being annoyed with the Bs.

Woke is not left as such. Left is workers rights no exploitation social justice keeping capitalism in check (not doing a good of that lately). Woke is a distraction from what left should be about. Therefore no surprise woke is now being embraced by centrists, mainstream and corporates.

Brian? · 07-11-2023 4:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337543#Comment_121337543

Women are mistreated every second of every day, just not in Ireland as much anymore.

Again, when we were kids it was legal for a man to rape his wife. The Magdelane laundries were still in full operation and women could not have lifesaving abortions. My mother had to give up her civil service job when she got married. No one said it was Afghanistan, but it wasn't good.

It was illegal for 2 men to have sex.

When your mother was an adult hundreds of babies were being buried in a septic tank in Tuam by nuns.

These are all facts, you need to take off your rose tinted glasses. If you think society didn't need to progress to protect vulnerable people, I have no idea what country you grew up in.

This isn't a fact, but I think it only became illegal to beat your wife in Ireland in 1996.

I'll say it again, it's absolutely bizarre you are trying to defend how Ireland used to be.

Brian? · 07-11-2023 4:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337522#Comment_121337522

So we ignore everything that happened up to then? It's like you want to wipe the slate clean every day.

K-9 · 07-11-2023 4:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337543#Comment_121337543

There was a civil service marriage ban until the mid 70s, no abortion until recently, no contraception till the 90s.

Maybe your mother was fine with that but plenty of others weren't.

Shoog · 07-11-2023 4:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337543#Comment_121337543

Women had less rights so it was at the discretion of the husband how well they lived. Since most people are (and alway have been) relatively "woke", most women did not suffer but many lived in abusive relationships with no way out.

tesla_newbie · 07-11-2023 4:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337628#Comment_121337628

See two can play at that game

the vast majority of homeless people ( real homeless ) are men

in divorce cases , the woman is guaranteed to see a more favourable judicial outcome , especially if children are involved

heath spending prioritises women’s conditions far more than men’s

suicide overwhelmingly involves men

j2 · 07-11-2023 4:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337491#Comment_121337491

So woke can be defined? Also can I blow an enormous load over your neck, chest, and face?

threadbanned

Brian? · 07-11-2023 5:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337720#Comment_121337720

This isn’t a game we are playing. You are not refuting a single point I made. Ireland progressed from being structurally biased against women because of people being socially progressive - this is my point. I never said it was a paradise for men.

So if all of the above is true now. They’re social norms. I thought you wanted to adhere to social norms? Your arguments are all over the shop man.

Brian? · 07-11-2023 5:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337803#Comment_121337803

I defined woke many times on my own terms. The other side has not.

Thats a lovely offer, but I’m married.

K-9 · 07-11-2023 5:40pm

80s Ireland would have changed anyway or something.

So families would just stop putting young girls in mother and baby homes, priests would stop abusing children, bishops moving them to another parish when they got a bit much, doctors not giving contraception to slutty girls who had sex outside marriage. All this would have changed anyway over time.

Or Ireland 30 or 40 years ago was an idyllic conservative Catholic state. No abortion, divorce, contraception, gay people, sexualy abused children, domestic violence etc. Twas bliss. Sure what would you want a divorce or be gay for?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 07-11-2023 6:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337803#Comment_121337803

Two questions: 1 - exactly how can we quantify an achievement by being down to "woke" or something that would have happaned anyway? -- and 2- and are you open enough to accept an honest answer should one be provided?

The second one, I see, has already been asnwered.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 07-11-2023 6:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337803#Comment_121337803

Two questions: 1 - exactly how can we quantify an achievement by being down to "woke" or something that would have happaned anyway? -- and 2- and are you open enough to accept an honest answer should one be provided?

The second one, I see, has already been asnwered.

ancapailldorcha · 07-11-2023 6:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337720#Comment_121337720

It's not a game.

MRA's don't care about men. They mere use whataboutery to vent their antipathy towards feminism.

A Woke Society? **Mod Warning In Post #435**

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A Woke Society? Mod Warning In Post #435