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Hollywood labour disputes

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,726 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy


    Plenty of the general public have family members or friends that are involved in some form of work in Hollywood or other film/TV industries. Doesn't necessarily have to be writing or acting so there's a pretty reasonable understanding of what the issue is. And in general, this is the first major battle over the abuse of AI.


    I've also seen very few complaints about the strikes so it's not got a particularly negative perception.



  • Registered Users Posts: 31,682 ✭✭✭✭~Rebel~


    That's all fine, it doesn't need the public's active support - it just needs the public not to entirely turn on them... which obviously they're not if, as you say, they don't even feel affected.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 11,053 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fysh


    You say "Hollywood and its issues" as though it's not a very visible example of a current business drive to essentially screw over everyone whose job involves doing anything that might feasibly be automated.

    I'm not about to claim that SAG AFTRA are selflessly doing this only because of the big picture, but a lot of people are already struggling with causalisation of their work and now an additional threat arrives in the form of "AI" and companies wanting to use it to cut costs, with no concern for what happens to displaced workers. (Even companies who are ambivalent about it are getting pressured to look at it because the moon-logic of shareholders means that what's actually good for the company is less relevant than what might make their share value go up...)



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,274 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    its an example but its kind of a niche technical area so my hunch is that people will compartmentalize it. AI has conveniently arrived when the West is running out of young people because nobody wants to have kids. I can see AI affecting some jobs but not that it will create lots of unemployment.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 11,053 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fysh


    A lot of public discourse about LLMs and GANs has been its impact on creative roles (in no small part because of how much material has been used in piratical fashion - hey, if it applies to downloading an MP3 it applies to putting data into a training set without the creator's permission - to train the things currently being called "AI"). But there's also a massive amount of effort going on to try and crowbar it into numerous white-collar "knowledge economy" jobs - with similarly poor results (but still, by being much cheaper than humans, appealing to a certain type of C-suite). Programmers, sysadmins, network admins, cybersecurity... And that's just in IT itself. Any industry where companies make software will also have people trying to cram "AI" into it with a pitch of "pay for a spendy sub to our software and you can fire a big chunk of your workforce". A lot of 'safe' well paid jobs where people have for years been steered towards if they want a reliable income in a growing industry are now in the crosshairs of this deeply stupid idea, and all being pushed by short-sighted greedy sociopaths for whom the answer to "what if it triggers enormous amounts of unemployment?" is "it'll be great, we can push down wages and hoard even more of the wealth".



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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,274 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    its certainly an issue, when my son was deciding on university this year I nudged the open door to just pick Mathematics over something more specialised or something with IT in the name and see what the world looks like in 4 years, also there are certain professions like Translator where people late in their careers now wouldnt pick it again, as the tech has turned their jobs into bashing machine translations into shape so no doubt AI will just accelerate the trend.At the same time if you backed this up to pre history we would all still be working in the fields, every call to stop progress has been wrong so far so you go with the trend.

    I think the problem is that the tension points are with industries in decline, journalism , media, Television etc. You could probably add in Higher education at this stage, very vulnerable to going on line in many areas and dismantling the system that brings you $100k of student debt for very little value in many cases. Movies fall into that peaked type of industry with its best years behind it

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 11,053 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fysh


    For me the goal is not so much "stop progress" as "stop wildly-overselling the abilities of what currently amounts to massively scope-expanded next-word-prediction". There are a number of ways that tools based on the technology can be useful, but those are as assistive instruments where you're talking about, at most, a modest percentage increase in efficiency of working processes.

    The problem with the current AI hypecycle is that what is being sold is "With this technology you can totally fire most of your workers and replace them with a Widget(TM) from us", despite the twin facts that:

    • the output of a lot of said tools is not suitable for direct publication (whether it's garbled or factually incorrect text from an LLM or images with wonky biology from a GAN) without human intervention, and
    • licencing and copyright issues are going to get real big real fast in this area - between the US Copyright Office stating that "AI"-generated works are excluded from copyright and the brewing storm over "AI"-type tools whose training sets have not been carefully curated and correctly licenced.

    "AI" is a current hype bubble, just like the internet was with the dotcom bubble at the end of the 90s. It's not that the technology in question can't be useful or potentially transformative, but the decisions are being pushed by investors and shareholders who have no understanding or concern for any of the longer-term factors at play - they just want to see Number Go Up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 31,682 ✭✭✭✭~Rebel~




  • Registered Users Posts: 33,657 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    The AMPTP's "final offer" still includes them trying to secure the rights to scan people's likeness and use them after their death whenever they want. Also still want to basically scan everyone, but are offering to pay the lowest grade SAG members and saying they'll ask permission before using scans of performers in the future (again, unless you die in which case they want to be able to use your likeness forever).

    Rest of the twitter thread outlines other knock-on effects of this, including the ancillary jobs this would destroy by using so many AI including wardrobe, makeup etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,274 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    if it doesnt live up to the hype then companies will lose money and stop using them. Ive only seen the copyright issue in passing, but anyone that creates anything only does so by absorbing everyone's preceding work so AI is only copying how human's create?, or you get legal decisions where you have to pay the companies you are mining from.

    I can see AI making a huge difference for example to educational software for kids and adults alike , if I had young children now I'd be trying to seek out an AI tutor

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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  • Moderators, Arts Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 11,053 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fysh


    IMO we are still too early in the days of LLMs to trust them with responsibilities like tutoring though - the guardrails are far too feeble and repeatedly fail to catch things like hallucinations (internally consistent states where they insist that incorrect information is correct). And they're also being dangerously slow at protecting against "prompt injection" attacks (a way of bypassing the guardrails by tailoring your input; doesn't sound too bad until you take into account that user activity is fed back into the underlying LLM as additional training data, so output poisoned by a prompt injection attack is then treated as training input).

    On the copyright front there was a court ruling in the USA already that any work generated by an AI is ineligible for copyright protection (the underlying logic being that copyright is a tool to promote the arts by providing artists with a set of exclusive rights that they can leverage to monetise their works and offset the cost of their creation); whether that remains in place is a different question. Meanwhile the likes of Adobe have updated the terms on their tools to automatically enroll subscribing customers into allowing any files saved in the cloud to be used to train their latest iterations of generative tools (rather than e.g. paying to licence a set of images for use as a training library).

    It is IMO a mistake to try and wave away the copyright issue on the grounds of "sure people do the same thing" - partly because people are not machines that can perfectly reproduce audiovisual works in a very short amount of time, and partly because as I mentioned above - the goal of copyright law is to create a framework that supports and promotes the creation of new art. It does not automatically follow that "making a computer do all the work" still produces equivalently valuable work - any artist in any field you talk to will tell you that ideas (at the level of granularity typical of LLMs) are very very easy to come up with, and most of the work is in the execution. Art is about crafting a medium to express an idea, with nuance and specific details of the artist's perspective being worked into the craft throughout. LLMs can generate striking images, without a doubt - but I've yet to see one that has held my attention or would make me come back to it and study its form, for example. (This is, admittedly, very much a Your Mileage May Vary area.)



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,274 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    thats the innate limitation of AI art in any form, but especially acting, music, literature, the audience needs to know there is a human behind it all which generates the attraction of the art through to the artist. AI simply wouldnt generate that connection in people.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,536 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    They didn't find any work generated by an AI is ineligible for copyright protection, they declared the obvious that any work without human input isn't eligible those are different.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,536 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    That first one is for the writers with the WGA strike which was accepted a few days later.

    This is for actors and SAG-Afra



  • Registered Users Posts: 31,682 ✭✭✭✭~Rebel~


    Oh I just added his writers/September one too cause it’s funny. The point remains with just his new one though - pointing out the nonsensical absurdity of one side of a negotiation just declaring this is the end, when obviously they have no control of the other party’s response.

    Sounds like SAG still have massive problems with that ‘final’ offer, so there will indeed need to be another ‘final’ offer, either in the coming days, or January.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 11,053 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fysh


    Well, specifically the issue is that while copyright in the USA is automatically granted to the author of the work, the ability to sue for damages for infringing said copyright requires the author to register the copyright.

    The case in question involved a developer who had tuned an algorithm to ingest a series of images, generate more images based on the initial set, then generate a narrative about the generated images. The developer attempted to register the copyright in the AI's name, with the intention that as the developer/owner of the software said copyright would then devolve to him. The courts have responded to his appeals that the lack of human authorship in the process makes the work ineligible for copyright registration.

    It's hard to argue that entering a prompt in an LLM or GAN to generate a story or image is equivalent authorship to actually writing a story or drawing a picture, and there are potential issues with doing so. For example - an artist is given a brief by a client for a proposal where the original contrat states that the artist retains their copyright on the work, but agrees to an ongoing licence for specific usage by the client. What difference is there between the client's brief to the artist and a prompt to a GAN? In the context of a framework intended to promote the creation of new artworks by protecting artist's abilities to financially benefit from their work, it's a tricky question - but it's not obvious to me that copyright protection should be available to LLM or GAN generated works, particularly if the LLM or GAN in question can't demonstrate that it correctly licenced the works that were incorporated in its training set.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,536 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    Photographs are subject to copyright, and at it's least involved takes 1 button press to take.

    Doesn't matter if someone else composed the scene, sets the lights, and positions any subjects.

    The person hitting the button owns the copyright.



  • Registered Users Posts: 31,682 ✭✭✭✭~Rebel~


    That's a suuuper niche use case - I've a feeling if somehow there was an epidemic of photographs of value being snapped by people who specifically had no active involvement at all in the crafting/composing of the image, then we might see a change of language to protect those doing the creative work. But that's not really a thing that happens, so exists as a little niche possibility.

    The use of AI being discussed here is far more likely to disrupt the concept of 'art creation', and so the language and rules around it need to be thought out very carefully.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,536 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    Doesn't matter if the that example was niche or not, it's still the person who clicking that owns the copy right.

    And there is a epidemic of people for who this applies, in any professional photoshoot or any film set. If not for the contract signed prior it'd be the cameraperson who'd have copyright not the studio or any of those others involved. The camera person can have very little input with the cinematographer having the most technical and artistic input for their contribution but it's still the button presser.

    If for example you used a newer consumer camera that took the picture when it was everyone was smiling in frame that would be uncopyrightable vs using a timer which is.

    Any AI output that anyone would want to be copyrighted is not going to be without human input and what counts as human input isn't very high.



  • Registered Users Posts: 31,682 ✭✭✭✭~Rebel~


    Word over here is there may be a tentative agreement!



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,433 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    It might finally be done, pending approval. No real details just yet so we’ll see if it’s sufficient for the members.

    A long old haul for everyone involved - kudos to the actors and writers before them for sticking it out. The wealthy ones were always going to be just fine (though respect to those who joined picket lines and offered their support), but these strikes must have been gruelling for the vast majority - the working actors and writers who don’t have a-list status or first look deals. Fingers crossed they’ll all be in a better position now.



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