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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users Posts: 843 ✭✭✭m2_browning


    The alternative to wind and solar is not oil but nuclear

    Yet we had pages and pages of arguments against it, with those arguments being proven false and often meeting very same issues nuclear faces in providing clean energy but these wind and solar when built are a lot less reliable and shorter lifespan while being more expensive

    aside: I’m rather old “oil and gas” are running out has been a meme for decades



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,551 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    Isn't the rivers and streams and lakes all tested too, on the way to the estuaries? Yet they deteriorated by a much smaller percentage (1-3%)? Did all the pollution hide and just appear in the estuary?

    The figures given are EPA figures. All other bodies involved were excluded. Plus, food production was protected, and by jaysus it still needs to be. Hence why you have cheap, high quality food produced in one of the most sustainable environments on the planet.

    On a personal note, I still regularly see local farmers flushing slurry tankers in local stream and lakes, and I have never heard of a single action taken over this. It makes my blood boil when I see this but I know that if I reported it my life would not be worth living from the blowback.

    What do you mean by flushing? What have you seen happening? I've a feeling I know but don't want to comment until I know what you are saying exactly. I bet any money other people on here are ready and primed to jump all over what you think you is happening here



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,723 ✭✭✭creedp


    Shoe on other foot... link or it never happened



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,029 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Nuclear uses another finite resource, it is not a solution to the depletion of a finite resource. If everyone went nuclear we would rapidly deplete uranium stocks and be back to square one.

    Fast breeders have never firgilled their promise of a closed fuel cycle and there is no reason to believe they ever will.



  • Registered Users Posts: 843 ✭✭✭m2_browning




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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,029 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Estuaries concentrate pollutant because as the water slows the particulates loose entrainment and fall out of suspension. Estuaries are always highly enriched for this reason and why they are an important habitat for birds who feed there.


    I have seen on a regular basis farmers cleaning their slurry tankers in streams and lakes after spreading slurry on the land. I have even once seen a farmer pumping a slurry tanker directly into a local lake, this was a long time ago and I doubt that my friend the farmer would ever do it again. I also saw another friend farmer repeatedly spray raw slurry into the forestry next to my house.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,029 ✭✭✭Shoog


    As I said when a viable breeder reactor is ever produced you can attempt to make that argument - which is what I said originally.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    One case? Ok, well childish little snippy comment aside, the IFI info is something I will look at

    The second linked is paywalled so no idea what it says

    2 cases from 2022 and 2 from 2020 (1 paywalled link so can't learn more)

    Is this it? Is there no actual data or is it just the odd news report because if it is then 5 cases in 3 years does not inspire much confidence. Though if there is no data, then there is no data

    The fines are also so small as to not really discourage anyone from offending in the first place never mind repeat offenders

    So the IFI & NPWS are 2 starting points

    I did manage to find this on the IFI site, though no more info beyond this could be found so its impossible to say who the cases were taken against or what they were for

    A search of the NPWS site turned up nothing though I did find this statement from a Dail question from earlier this year. No further info on the cases is available that I could find so they could be for anything at all

    The Department currently has 69 prosecution cases on hand for alleged breaches of wildlife legislation

    I now understand why you are so reluctant to provide evidence to back up your claim, there's little evidence out there to begin with. As a result I will conclude your claim is false as there is no evidence to suggest otherwise



  • Registered Users Posts: 843 ✭✭✭m2_browning


    Yet again you did not bother to read what was posted

    And this is why the Greens are hated, the ****ing arrogance and religious like blindness to reality and mindless adherence to groupthink



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,551 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    How did you know they were pumping into the lake, and not sucking water out to dilute slurry in tanks? This is common practice. You take out a load and spread it, suck up water and bring it back to the tank. It helps dilute the slurry, makes it easier agitate and makes more use of the N (dilutes P&K).

    Now, next question is did you report any of these alleged illegal activity? And if not, why not?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭dmakc


    These are only some of the cases that made the headlines. I'm not collecting all the cases for you. Though no doubt if twenty cases were provided, you'd still have the same opinion. Can't all be as well off as you are but personally speaking, a €13,000 fine would make me think twice about offending again.

    Nothing to comment on the financial cost of the measures being addressed to aid impact on the environment? Not light money either, and it's proactive, not reactive, which surely has to be a plus in your mind.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭dmakc


    Can you confirm whether they were sucking it from or blowing it into the river? I would strongly wager the former, because the latter is basically hearsay from someone who would jump at the opportunity to criticise these evil custodians



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Any putative actions which result in lowering of pollution are welcome. Those actions need to have teeth though and from what I've seen they are lacking. Sure they'll sting, but scare potential offenders into compliance, doubtful

    Claims that there are loads of actions being taken against the agri sector don't stack up based on the limited evidence I've seen and neither do claims that the sector is reducing pollution when all data says otherwise.

    If the agri sector wants credit for reducing pollution of our waterways then it needs to reduce pollution from agriculture in our waterways. Thus far their response has been whataboutery versus actual data collected by the EPA

    Sure there are other sources of pollution and they must also be addressed asap, but the biggest polluter does not get off lightly because they say they are doing good when all evidences shows otherwise



  • Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭deholleboom


    Im what you call on the fence about this. I think it is reasonable to assume the easy oil production era has ceased to be as important as it has been. IF more energy is needed in growing economies around the world the depletion will be even faster.Fracking is only a momentary stop gap. There may be more gas field exploration.

    I think the world will need every conceivable energy source. You only cut off production if another energy source is more efficient AND cheaper. Solar and wind cannot provide the answer. It cannot replace but it can add. Nuclear HAS to be part of the mix. Nate Hagen has done good work investigating all this. I still think he is too positive.

    There is also a strong possibility that the world economy will collapse. That globalisation will turn into localisation and that old style recource wars will raise its ugly head again. That oil production will actually go down, as it did during Covid and the price drops. Supply chain disruption totally killing any green (or global) tech option. That we will have to grow our own food using less and less fertiliser.

    So, do we see a clear path here? The answer is no, it will be messy.

    The greens have their dreams and fantasies. They are currently hitting the reality wall.

    Im open to suggestions but there is no simple panacea, no simple solution.

    Climate change is the least of our worries or should be. Eyeballs on the important historical things first. We have been here before..



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,029 ✭✭✭Shoog


    I told you and you will well understand that reporting a local farmer will render you a social paria. So no.



  • Registered Users Posts: 843 ✭✭✭m2_browning


    I agree the unwillingness to even consider nuclear as part of whatever energy mix solution to worlds energy needs

    or the pages spent arguing about mitigations like dredging rivers

    or the calls to destroy farming here all so more rainforests can be cut elsewhere

    leaves a sour taste in mouth as it becomes apparent that the best outcome for Ireland and humanity might not be the aim of the Greens



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭dmakc


    What is lacking in a €13,000 fine? And why wouldn't it scare potential offenders into compliance? All the measures I mentioned are currently being implemented and all are aimed at aiding the waterways. You asked for evidence, you were given evidence, and now you brush it off as "meh they still won't care"

    There's no winning with your type. Bar only gets higher and higher until it's the stone age. Mental gymnastics as per.

    If that is the standard we're resorting to, I was in South America lately and the one thing that struck me was, how our little first world island's environmental measures literally do not matter one bit in the context of the globe. I suggest you take a trip some time. Here we could eliminate every animal, plant trees on every acre, replace every car with a bicycle, report everyone burning turf in Galway city to the gardai, Middleton would still get flooded in October.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭dmakc


    How do you know they were not sucking water up? How are you certain they're pumping valuable land nutrients directly into the river where it makes zero sense instead of them on the land?



  • Registered Users Posts: 843 ✭✭✭m2_browning


    Same here when visiting India, you couldn’t see a 100 meters in front of you with the smog and the pollution and amounts of people is just on another level

    they literally laugh at us over there with our first world “issues”

    every single living being in this island could vanish out of existence tommorow and the net change to climate change be somewhere around net zero (ha pun)



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Cheers, I've been to 3 other continents in the past with volunteering work I've done and seen first hand the issues

    As I said, a couple of news articles does not inspire me with confidence as regards compliance of the Agri sector. This is backed up by the data published by the EPA

    I do look forward to improvements coming from that sector though, if they manage to progress even half of the actions in the Climate Action Plan and will happily give credit where its due when those improvements happen. Until then there are no free passes



  • Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭deholleboom


    Indeed. The greens haven't yet realised that they have built their dreams on top of a hydro carbon world and need that world to exist (for solar panels and wind turbines) while at the same time trying to kill it much like in some of the old parables. The extend of their blindness never seizes to amaze me. Not only that, they never seize lecturing other people. It is rightly seen as madness by the likes of India. India might just be the smartest kid at the table. They actually have the best seat for the future..



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,029 ✭✭✭Shoog


    I used to be the secretary of our local group water scheme and I saw the coliform counts for raw water go from a few 100 CFU to 10,000 of thousands around slurry spreading time. This was the water I was having to wash my kids in.

    Don't tell me that farmers aren't regularly pumping raw sewage into lakes and streams. It's gotten a lot better as local stocking rates have gone down but it still happens.

    I live in a very rural community and I have seen every type of environmental damage by farmers in my time. But this is community so to report anyone is literally the worst thing you could possibly do. I remember threatening one local lad with a solicitor for unpaid charges on the GWS and people blanked me for months.



  • Registered Users Posts: 843 ✭✭✭m2_browning


    Think of it as Holistic Organic Water 🤣

    btw most kids around the world don’t have running water or enough food



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭dmakc


    I will absolutely tell you that those farmers weren't pumping full tanks of slurry into those rivers. And you saying they were is about as reliable as you claiming the CFU to be "10,000 of thousands" around slurry spreading time.

    "Around slurry spreading time" is exactly when the slurry would be going into the fields, around this they might suck out water from a water source to leave back into the tank and aid agitation / clean the tank. Seems to me you're caught here in that you hadn't realised this practice, so ran to some inflationary figures to suit your reasoning. Again, what you're saying makes zero logical sense. Why would I pump money into a river (ever), particularly during the season in which it's eligible for land?

    Post edited by dmakc on


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,723 ✭✭✭creedp




  • Registered Users Posts: 22,419 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    How many Breeder reactors are currently operating commercially around the world?

    There are almost as many Nuclear Fusion reactors in the world as there are fast breeders, and it's not for want of trying. Many billions of mostly public money has been spent trying to get these things to work reliably and economically, and most countries have given up on development because they can't get them to work reliably, and economically.

    If they do ever figure out how to do it, great, but until that day comes, it's not part of the equation


    In terms of conventional nuclear reactors, we have about 200 years of fuel based on current consumption. We get about 10% of the worlds electricity from Nuclear, so if we were to double that, we'd only have a hundred years of fuel left, if we got half the worlds electricity from Nuclear, we'd be running out in 40 years

    Nuclear is a useful part of the energy mix, but it is not a panacea, and not a long term solution using currently proven technology



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,551 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    Right. Can't understand that. They were actively polluting, you witnessed it. Didn't report (which you can do so anonymously) and then come here whinging about pollution. These people need to be reported and penalised, or they'll do it again (maybe)

    And if they were law breaking the EPA would be all over it right? Or are they like @Shoog and turn a blind eye? Perhaps the pollution isn't as controllable as you think it is from ag. Or the EPA can't be arsed finding out what the cause is, is it deliberate, are regulations not being followed, are they not tight enough? BTW, a €13k fine for a farmer is a big deal when the average farm income in 2022 is ~€45k (note that's income now, not profit) (this on a year where output prices were at record highs and don't account for labour or land charges)

    Post edited by roosterman71 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 843 ✭✭✭m2_browning


    They don’t operate commercially not because of commercial concerns but weapons concerns as they can breed plutonium.

    In meantime the wind industry is collapsing as it can’t work without zero interest rates



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