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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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    #28712
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,420 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    For Ireland at 2nd Row, I'd like to see a rotation of

    Ryan, Ahern, McCarthy, Edogbo, Murray, Treadwell starting to emerge in the next year or two with Beirne and Henderson stepping into supporting roles



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    #28713
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,459 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    I don't think Treadwell is going to be a long-term prospect at this stage and I'm not sure which is Baird's best position yet.



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    #28714
    conquestscarer
    Registered Users Posts: 197 ✭✭conquestscarer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121349580#Comment_121349580

    You're forgetting the new toy factor of Quinn with a statement like that.



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    #28715
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,802 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121349587#Comment_121349587

    "Hendersn's done"

    Why do you think this? He's the grand old age of 31



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    #28716
    Clo-Clo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,355 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121349599#Comment_121349599

    Beirne is 31 and Henderson is 31....both will be circa 35 next WC if they are fit

    The speed at which people want players dropped is incredibe.

    If the players you mention deserve to start games then I am sure they will start games, putting players into the team just because they are younger is a recipe for disaster.

    The players "given a shot" is nonsense to be honest, they should be able to perform to a level for their province and then perform in the national setup. Farrell hs shown that he has no issue with putting players into the team when they meet those targets. Most of these threads are full of people posting their current favorite players and wondering why they are not in the team.



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    #28717
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121351730#Comment_121351730

    they should be able to perform to a level for their province and then perform in the national setup. Farrell hs shown that he has no issue with putting players into the team when they meet those targets.

    Disagree, tbh. To a certain extent, Farrell, more than any previous Ireland coach, has shown that Provincial form or exposure doesn't particularly matter to your inclusion in the Ireland squad.



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    #28718
    Clo-Clo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,355 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121351759#Comment_121351759

    Probably easier to name the players you think didn't get included?

    Also who should they have replaced in the squad in your opinion



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    #28719
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121351790#Comment_121351790

    Off the top of my head, Doris, Keenan, Sheehan, JGP, Crowley, Kelleher, Connors, McCarthy; all guys who had fairly limited Provincial exposure - or in JGP's case, was 2nd choice provincially - when selected.

    Even in broader squads, guys like Penny were selected ahead of, say, Hodnett, who had been performing really well against higher calibre opposition.

    To be clear, I'm not saying they shoudn't have been in (tho in some cases I'd have disagreed with the selection). But the point that they performed provincially first doesn't quite stack up.



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    #28720
    TRC10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121351730#Comment_121351730

    The players "given a shot" is nonsense to be honest, they should be able to perform to a level for their province and then perform in the national setup. 

    Many players have been performing to a level for their province, only to not be included in favour of players not playing to that level for another province



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    #28721
    ulsteru20s
    Registered Users Posts: 2,544 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    I’d say there is less connection between provincial performance (especially in big games/europe) and ireland call ups than ever before.

    Not saying it is good or bad but its true.



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    #28722
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,446 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Farrell is going to pick players who can do the things he wants them to do, simple as. Performance for the provinces is probably secondary to that.



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    #28723
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,137 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121352062#Comment_121352062

    What do you mean by call ups?

    Getting in extended squad or getting game time?



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    #28724
    ulsteru20s
    Registered Users Posts: 2,544 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121352401#Comment_121352401

    Extended squad especially.



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    #28725
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,137 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121352526#Comment_121352526

    Extended squad I can maybe see it - again it depends how you're describing 'performance'. In the past you'd get into extended squads purely for existing in the 23 of certain provinces - I'd argue the fact of simply playing in games doesn't equate to 'performance'.

    I dont think there is any case to claim that there is a bigger break 'than ever before' when it comes to provincial performance and getting into the ireland 23. There were years in the past where players were playing outstanding for their provinces in huge European games and couldnt get an opportunity ahead of the guy who had the jersey. I can't think of any cases where there are such big gaps in the last year.



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    #28726
    Wegians89
    Registered Users Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭Wegians89


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121349580#Comment_121349580

    Hansen is 25 now, made his Ireland debut at 23. Frisch is 27. There are a lot of younger centres at a similar level who I’d say are more likely to be involved than Frisch.



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    #28727
    Wegians89
    Registered Users Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭Wegians89


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121349587#Comment_121349587

    Murray is arguably the best line out operator in the world atm, particularly defensively and hes fairly rapid for a lock but he isn’t ready for test level.

    He either needs to add 5/10kg to be an effective carrier and to be able to impact the breakdown or become similes level jackal threat as Beirne.



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    #28728
    TRC10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121353621#Comment_121353621

    Murray is arguably the best line out operator in the world atm

    Ok



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    #28729
    inbloom427
    Registered Users Posts: 31 ✭inbloom427


    @Akrasia "Hendy is done"... is he ay? Fairly showed his class compared about your young Munster bucks tonight haha



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    #28730
    Wegians89
    Registered Users Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭Wegians89


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121353638#Comment_121353638

    17 line out steals last season, 3 already this year in 120 minutes of rugby. They are world class numbers



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    #28731
    Dubinusa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,561 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121353589#Comment_121353589

    Certainly Osborne. Unless he is moved to another position. Tom Farrell has been very good and never got a look.



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    #28732
    SqueakyKneecap
    Registered Users Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭SqueakyKneecap


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121353906#Comment_121353906

    Tom Farrell is very similar to Gavin Thornbury in the fact that when they're absolutely tearing it up for Connacht and knocking on the window for international selection they pick up long-term injuries at the worst imaginable time.

    I was very impressed with young McCann in the last two weeks. We're a few very decent prospects coming through in the second/back row positions over the coming years.



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    #28733
    Clegg
    Registered Users Posts: 17,169 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    I'm more convinced now than ever that Cian Prendergast is Ireland's long term 6. He's a workhorse that also makes the 'big moments' plays too. Wonderful player.



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    #28734
    Wegians89
    Registered Users Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭Wegians89


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356795#Comment_121356795

    Still needs to tighten up on his discipline but there’s a huge amount of potential with him



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    #28735
    Clo-Clo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,355 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121351855#Comment_121351855

    You didn't answer the question. You provided a list of players who played well at their province, got into the squad and then into the team based on their performances which is the point I made, so I guess we are agreeing then. The likes of Hansen ripping it up v Leinster and was taken quickly into the squad and team from nowhere would show to me the ability to escalate the ranks quickly with your performance at provincial level.

    Hodnett v Penny, was that in a November series? I can't even remember. Neither made it into the WC warm up and Penny hasn't been capped? so what exactly is the Penny v Hodnett discussion?

    If you wanted Hodnett into the World Cup warm up would it not be Hodnett v Treadwell?



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    #28736
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121357999#Comment_121357999

    I very clearly did answer the questions tho. Your questions...

    Probably easier to name the players you think didn't get included? Also who should they have replaced in the squad in your opinion

    My answer:

    To be clear, I'm not saying [the selected players] shoudn't have been in

    But I'll remind you of your original point:

    they should be able to perform to a level for their province and then perform in the national setup. Farrell hs shown that he has no issue with putting players into the team when they meet those targets.

    The point is, all the players I've listed all had fairly limited degrees of Provincial experience, particularly at Europen level, when Farrell selected them. That's just objectively true. In JGP's case he was 2nd choice provincially.

    And on this:

    Hodnett v Penny, was that in a November series? I can't even remember. Neither made it into the WC warm up and Penny hasn't been capped? so what exactly is the Penny v Hodnett discussion?

    Which is why I specifcally prefaced this point with "Even in broader squads...". At the time, Penny had 10 minutes European experience. Hodnett had much more, playing well against the likes of Toulouse.



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    #28737
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121359049#Comment_121359049

     In JGP's case he was 2nd choice provincially.

    He was, but he also had pretty extensive experience, even at European level. That is just a case of different coaches rating players differently. He played in 51 matches, including 15 European ties, before Farrell took over the Irish coaching job.



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    #28738
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,137 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121359099#Comment_121359099

    Fully agree but think you're actually underplaying his experience there - from my count he has 93 games for Leinster and 35 games for the Blues before his first Irish cap (which wasn't even as a starter).

    The JGP example is simply an extremely poor one if a person is trying to make the case on limited degrees of experience.



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    #28739
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121359099#Comment_121359099

    Yep, fair enough (Part of the point is also provincial pecking order tho).

    Point still stands for the list of other players tho.



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    #28740
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121359167#Comment_121359167

    My original point was just about experience. It was about:

    Provincial form or exposure 



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    #28741
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,137 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121359541#Comment_121359541

    Your full paragraph from the post Podge quoted:

    The point is, all the players I've listed all had fairly limited degrees of Provincial experience, particularly at Europen level, when Farrell selected them. That's just objectively true. In JGP's case he was 2nd choice provincially.

    You keep either trying to shoehorn JGP into arguments where he doesn't fit or need to be careful where you're throwing his name into. JGP has absolutely no place in the discussion about experience before he was getting Irish caps, as he had a huge amount - far more than many players before they get a look in.



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