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Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

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    #18692
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,830 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121357479#Comment_121357479

    Hamas has built tunnels and HQ's under hospitals.

    Prove it.



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    #18693
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,500 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121358254#Comment_121358254

    Ehh. So what? It's not a concentration camp. Not even an internment camp. And its totally done to downplay the behaviors of Nazi Germany towards Jewish people.



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    #18694
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,830 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121357530#Comment_121357530

    The only way this war ends is with return of hostages and consequences for Hamas. 

    No return of hostages in Israel?

    No consequences for Israel?



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    #18695
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,830 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121358290#Comment_121358290

    Anon on the internet that thinks most criticism of Israeli war crimes is antisemitism says it isn't, UN expert says it is, who to trust here,

    https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-occupation-makes-palestinian-territories-open-air-prison-un-expert-2023-07-11/

    Francesca Albanese, the U.N. Special Rapporteur on human rights in the occupied territories, told reporters in Geneva that Israel had carried out widespread, systematic and arbitrary detention of Palestinians since the 1967 Middle East war.

    But wait, there's more

    https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/un-expert-warns-new-instance-mass-ethnic-cleansing-palestinians-calls

    “The situation in the occupied Palestinian territory and Israel has reached fever pitch,” said Francesca Albanese, UN Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian Territory occupied since 1967.

    “The United Nations and its Member States must intensify efforts to mediate an immediate ceasefire between the parties, before we reach a point of no return,” said Albanese. “The international community has the responsibility to prevent and protect populations from atrocity crimes. Accountability for international crimes committed by Israeli occupation forces and Hamas must also be immediately pursued,” she said.

    ...

    “There is a grave danger that what we are witnessing may be a repeat of the 1948 Nakba, and the 1967 Naksa, yet on a larger scale. The international community must do everything to stop this from happening again,” the UN expert said. 

    Expert written off as an antisemite in 3...2...1...



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    #18696
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,500 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121358289#Comment_121358289

    "Hamas has also dug a large portion of its tunnels under, and connected to, civilian sites like school, hospitals, and mosques in dense urban areas"

    https://mwi.westpoint.edu/underground-nightmare-hamas-tunnels-and-the-wicked-problem-facing-the-idf/

    Interesting article linked here, describes what Hamas is up to very accurately:

    https://sites.duke.edu/lawfire/2023/10/15/five-ideas-to-counter-hamas-lawfare-strategy-and-why/




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    #18697
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,500 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121358310#Comment_121358310

    Did the rappateur say it was a concentration camp? Because concentration camps weren't 'open air prisons.' No one got out. Ever.

    My issue is the coopting of the term concentration camp to define Gaza. It isn't.



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    #18698
    Wolf359f
    Registered Users Posts: 5,827 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121358312#Comment_121358312

    We're 2 weeks into the ground invasion and the only footage of Hamas tunnels released by the IDF have been CGI presentations.



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    #18699
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,830 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121358312#Comment_121358312

    The source cited in this is from 2014.

    I’ve thought this for some time. In reaction to an earlier clash between Hamas and Israel, I wrote in 2014 about the Gaza war underway at that time that:

    And the other link is equally baseless and runs on speculation

    Even if those tunnels have not been rebuilt or replaced, that means that it is likely that there remain hundreds of miles of intricate, complex, and deep tunnel infrastructure in Gaza. It is a veritable city underneath the cities on Gaza’s surface.

    I asked for proof, not stereotypes. If dozens of hospitals are being targeted, you need dozens of cases of fresh evidence. Not a single alleged case from a decade prior. Did Israel not already deal with that one (are they complicit)?

    Someone told me the IDF only bombs on a "case by case basis" is that false?



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    #18700
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users Posts: 9,308 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121358325#Comment_121358325

    It's a complete nonsense. Even having tunnels below a hospital does not remove the IHL protections. The articles are very clear on it. Under no circumstances.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



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    #18701
    freebritney
    Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭freebritney


    Don't you know pointing out anything Israel does wrong is antisemitism, the more you point it out and the more facts you have to back it up makes you more antisemitic. Israel alone can use the term concentration camp even though they existed long before WWII (another gift from Old Blighty along with railways and civil services https://www.readersdigest.co.uk/culture/books/must-reads/a-shameful-legacy-how-britain-invented-the-concentration-camp).

    Israel also wants to control who gets to describe something as a genocide and continues to deny the genocide of the Armenian people, they alone have the sole rights on that one also.

    https://www.jpost.com/international/article-704978



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    #18702
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,830 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121358350#Comment_121358350

    Or to NTM's argument, if you're going to do it under some highly exceptional clause in international law, that would presume you need to have highly exceptional evidence.



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    #18703
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,830 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121358322#Comment_121358322

    The gave us a full walk around of that school with the rocket launchers on the ground level. I don't think it's likely they staged that. It was a compelling video demonstration. And they can't do a fraction of that for these hospital and refugee camp claims. Smells.



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    #18704
    Northernlily
    Registered Users Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭Northernlily


    Walked by a normal looking fella this morning in Ballsbridge scraping stickers with mssing Israelis off an electricity box with a blade. Not sure how I feel about that, it certainly caught me off guard as I was doing my usual Sunday walk to Herbert Park market.

    These are innocent victims. By all accounts attack the murderous IDF and Hamas. We should remember all the civilians caught up in this murderous bloodthirsty and frankly vile war.

    Netenyahu and his crew of mob like bloodthirsty crooks will get what they want this time round anyway. No more Gaza.



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    #18705
    Fuascailteoir
    Registered Users Posts: 614 ✭✭✭Fuascailteoir


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121358106#Comment_121358106

    Sure it is practically a summer camp. They even had hospitals. What would the likes of them need hospitals for



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    #18706
    political analyst
    Registered Users Posts: 4,548 ✭✭✭political analyst


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121358361#Comment_121358361

    Not recognising a genocide doesn't necessarily mean denying that genocide. At least Israel, unlike Turkey, doesn't criminalise talking about the Armenian genocide.



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    #18707
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121358092#Comment_121358092

    I see the problem. Ms Fitzgerald was looking at the convention covering the Armed Forces (Geneva I), that specific Art 19 covered military hospitals/medical facilities. Which is a silly error to make unless there is a claim that the ones we are focusing on are miltary hospitals. Geneva IV covers civilian infrastructure.

    It can't be said, however, that warnings are not being provided. Such things have been cited on this thread as evidence of war crimes, folks can't have it both ways.



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    #18708
    political analyst
    Registered Users Posts: 4,548 ✭✭✭political analyst


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121358201#Comment_121358201

    Jewishness is also an ethnic identity, not just a religious one. That's why there is such a person as a Jewish atheist.



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    #18709
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,890 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121358402#Comment_121358402

    That would be an elementary mistake by Ms. Fitzgerald, and she was the "expert" being relied on by those criticising Israel.



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    #18710
    fly_agaric
    Registered Users Posts: 4,904 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121358201#Comment_121358201

    Been some vandalism and assaults of Jews in France (?), I think but noone killed in the name of current events.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/06/antisemitic-acts-have-exploded-in-france-since-7-october-interior-minister-says

    I believe there have been armed police outside synagogues and Jewish schools and the like for years in France due to the threat of violence from Islamic fundamentalists, so nothing has changed there anyway, other than they are probably a lot more tense now.

    I doubt the mobs of angry, protesting muslims screaming Allahu Akbar etc. are making Jews feel comfortable in Europe right now (!) whatever their position on Israel, and its violence + war crimes in Gaza.

    Unfortunately afair likes of Netanyahu and the nuts on the Israeli right and their violent settler vanguard do link their faith with their worldly goals (of course that does not justify any hate and violence against Jews).

    Anyway, if I was a religious Jew I'd probably be keeping the kippah in the backpack in Western European cities at the moment.



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    #18711
    sock.rocker*
    Registered Users Posts: 819 ✭✭✭sock.rocker*


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121358321#Comment_121358321

    https://www.auschwitz.org/en/history/life-in-the-camp/releases-from-the-camp/

    In the early years of existence of concentration camps in Germany, the number of prisoners released was high - usually, they had a chance of leaving the camp after three months or at the most after a year. The provisions of the camp regulations in force at the time provided for periodic evaluations of prisoners’ behaviour. Those willing to work and who allegedly accepted in principle the political policies of the national-socialist state received qualifications to the first category. Prisoners who showed some improvement but nevertheless required re-socialization received the second category. Whereas, persons who were definitely hostile to the regime (e.g. communist leaders) were usually assigned the third category.

    Upon the outbreak of the World War Two, the previously adopted release criteria were considerably tightened. In 1940, the release of Jews was suspended and to some extent restricted for other political prisoners, whose continued stay in the camp, due to their specific professional qualification was deemed advisable by the SS authorities. Due to the considerable increase in the number of release applications from occupied Poland and the Czech Republic in 1941, the procedures were re-tightened, and from the autumn of 1942, it was almost completely stopped.


    Gaza was very like pre-WWII concentration camps until October. People there were leaving it to work in Israel etc. Now it's like the WWII places of execution we know the concentration camps to have been, because the genocide has begun.



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    #18712
    sock.rocker*
    Registered Users Posts: 819 ✭✭✭sock.rocker*


    Igotadose, I don't particularly care if you have an issue with the term being coopted. How often does a "war" break out and one side has complete and immediate control over the other's water, electricity, food, and border crossings? There has been a blockade for over a decade with 50% unemployment and desperate conditions within. It is literally a camp with a population that cannot leave.

    That Israel aren't actively putting Gazans in gas chambers does not mean it is not very similar the meaning of a concentration camp, and now we're seeing hospitals and refugee camps being bombed while electricity, water, and food, are being restricted.

    The only way it could be more like a concentration camp today would be for those doing the killings to try and hide what they're doing.



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    #18713
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users Posts: 9,308 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121358402#Comment_121358402

    Israel are absolutely committing war crimes when it comes to bombing hospitals all over Gaza. The warnings only started in the last day or so but the hospitals are being bombed for nearly 2 weeks now. Hospitals can only lose that protection on very specific circumstances as you pointed out.

    I imagine Ruth Fitzgerald was using Convention 1 because Israel were saying there were Hamas fighters under some hospitals or getting treated there. She didn't specify whether they were military or civilian medical facilities.

    Article 19 - Wounded and sick IV. Discontinuance of protection of hospitals

    The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. Protection may, however, cease only after due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit, and after such warning has remained unheeded.

    Israel would need to prove all the hospitals (and ambulances) they bombed were committing acts harmful to the enemy and they provided sufficient warnings, time for safe evacuation and restraint/proportionality.

    Very good explainer here.


    https://twitter.com/ICRC/status/1720092458938220674?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1720092458938220674%7Ctwgr%5E112ad5f1c6a6c68dbb82179df16280bea8ac4cc7%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icrc.org%2Fen%2Fdocument%2Fprotection-hospitals-during-armed-conflicts-what-law-says


    Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War | OHCHR

    The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. Protection may, however, cease only after due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit, and after such warning has remained unheeded.

    The fact that sick or wounded members of the armed forces are nursed in these hospitals, or the presence of small arms and ammunition taken from such combatants which have not yet been handed to the proper service, shall not be considered to be acts harmful to the enemy.

    Post edited by Cluedo Monopoly on

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



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    #18714
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users Posts: 9,308 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Not the first time Israel have violated medical neutrality.

    Recorded violations of medical neutrality

    Medical neutrality - Wikipedia

    Gaza Strip (2021)

    During the Israeli bombing of Gaza in May 2021, parts of a Médecins Sans Frontières (Doctors without Borders) trauma and burns care clinic were destroyed in a series of airstrikes. The strikes destroyed a sterilization room and damaged a waiting area, there were no resulting direct casualties suffered. The airstrikes also destroyed the road that lead to the clinic, thereby preventing access to it. The clinic was subsequently forced to close.[17]

    Further airstrikes also lead to death of two prominent doctors in the Gaza Strip. Dr. Ayman Abu al-Ouf, the head of internal medicine at Al-Shifa hospital, was killed along with 12 members of his extended family after an airstrike on his home on 16 May 2021. Dr. Mooein Ahmad al-Aloul, a 66-year-old psychiatric neurologist, was also killed in his home during the al-Wehda attacks.[18]

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



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    #18715
    Sir_Name
    Registered Users Posts: 824 ✭✭✭Sir_Name



    Some interesting resolutions passed this week regarding the conflict but mainly in relation to Palestinian civilians.

    https://press.un.org/en/2023/gaspd798.doc.htm

    Among the six draft resolutions, the text titled “Work of the Special Committee to Investigate Israeli Practices Affecting the Human Rights of the Palestinian People and Other Arabs of the Occupied Territories” (document A/C.4/78/L.13), was approved by a recorded vote of 85 in favour to 13 against, with 72 abstentions.



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    #18716
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users Posts: 9,308 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    https://twitter.com/Timesofgaza/status/1723693992410280067

    no words

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



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    #18717
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,826 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121358502#Comment_121358502

    🤪.



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    #18718
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121358553#Comment_121358553

    Yes, I'm quite familiar with the regulation. You will note I only cited ICRC links in my previous post.

    The impetus for my input was the very categorical statement a few pages back that hospitals can never lose their protected status. That is incorrect, and it changes the discussion from prima facie to as applied.

    I have not said anything about wounded Hamas personnel, HQs under hospitals, or whatever, mainly because I (like most everyone here) lack the full knowledge which is probably only available to Hamas. I have also not addressed warnings, since I have not read them, but certainly there is an understanding on this thread dating back to at least 15 Oct (after a search) that Israel has been providing warnings about specific hospitals.

    Few things are very obviously war crimes. Lining up prisoners and shooting them, for example, would be a fair one. Most anything else is not easily determined from mere observation.



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    #18719
    Frank Grimes
    Registered Users Posts: 5,333 ✭✭✭Frank Grimes


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121358694#Comment_121358694

    Is that the best you can do? At least accuse the poster of being an anti-Semite.



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    #18720
    jmreire
    Registered Users Posts: 8,518 ✭✭✭jmreire


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121357538#Comment_121357538

    Sure it does, but the main difference between Christianity and Islam is that Christianity reformed, whereas Islam is still the same as it was 1400 years ago, and what's more, it cannot be reformed...ever! As my Wahhabi friend told me one time, you want peace and love ? No problem, its there in the Quran. War and destruction? No problem either, its all there in the Quran. According to him, the Quran is the perfect guide for all of mankind for all time. It contains all the answers.



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    #18721
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users Posts: 9,308 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121358700#Comment_121358700

    Fair enough. Do you think any of the hospitals Israel has bombed lost their strict protection and that Israel could prove it. And do you think they were offered sufficient warnings and time/safety to evacuate and that the subsequent bombings were proportionate to the military threat? I mean Israel has also cut off power, fuel and supplies to these hospitals. They don't care. It's savagery.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



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