A Woke Society? **Mod Warning In Post #435**

You wouldn’t, because the concept just isn’t a factor. The suicide rates among men is used as leverage to promote the concept of toxic masculinity, because what’s the most catastrophic consequence of not believing in this intangible concept? Apparently it doesn’t bode well for anyone’s future who doesn’t buy into in the concept.

An error we always have to look out for in statistics and other areas of scientific study is looking at single factors in isolation.

Someone could make the claim that Macho Culture reduces Suicide Rates for example. And then another person could say "But community X has a lot of macho culture and suicide is just as high if not higher there!!".

The issue there would be both of them would be essentially wrong. The factors that drive suicide are many - and any solution to it will have to account for that. Perhaps some elements of "macho" or "masculine" culture - similar to the "default aggressiveness" I earlier wrote I try to instill in my children - can reduce suicide. But other factors can at the same time drive it up too. So it is difficult to gauge the actual effect of one single change in one single factor.

So sure - a macho culture in the traveler community may indeed (I sure don't know) be pushing suicide rates in that culture down for all we know. Or up for all we know. But the suicide rates in that culture could still be high or higher than average because of any number of other factors. Such as education standards - or being a minority culture - living conditions - access to services like law that the rest of us take for granted - and much more.

All that said however I think the term "macho culture" is very vague and nebulous and general. I am not even sure what it means. And I am not as yet convinced that what it means in one culture such as - lets say white collar society - will be the same as what it means in the Traveller Community. In fact I am somewhat convinced it absolutely does not mean the same thing - having only recently listened to a podcast the Two Norries did with one member of that community. The impression I got from him of his culture is starkly different from the "macho culture" I might think of from, for example, a group of gym bunnies or the people I meet on the MMA and Jujitsu mats.

So that makes it even harder to gauge whether "macho culture" has any influence on suicide rates - let alone suicide rates between two different communities. We would have to A) define exactly what the term even means and then B) ensure the definition applies equally to both communities. Then we have made only the first step towards answering that question and making a useful comparison between them.

My own feeling is that any medical professional should be able to use any term they like in their writings or papers - so long as they very clearly define what they mean by that term. As I wrote earlier many people seem to have many concepts about what the term "Toxic Masculinity" even means. I myself used to happily use the term and my definition conformed to the Oxford one. And I for a short time found it a useful term.

However I quickly realized that too many people had completely other notions what the term even meant. And as you say above - it seems to me Bliss, who seemingly coined the term, had dubious motives for doing so. So I have mostly abandoned ever using the term.

If a medical professional is using the term as I was however - to describe the toxic effects of expecting males to conform to some standard or notion of masculinity - then I would not automatically write that professional off. Because that is a good use of the term. And I do suspect strongly that that is toxic and I do suspect strongly it lends itself to suicide.

I just question their wisdom using it given how misunderstood the term has become.

Certainly in my own subjective and anecdotal experience - which is not a scientific study - certain aspects of masculinity and machoness and aggression can have very positive effects on depression and suicide and well being. Powerfully so. IF implemented correctly and explored correctly. There are so many stories of Marital Arts and so forth turning people around from the abyss and reducing depression and anxiety and poor self esteem for example. And the culture Jokko Willink describes in the Navy Seals too for another example.

Openly expecting a given man/male to conform to that masculinity and machoness and aggression for no other reason than they are a man/male however - not so much. That's where it gets toxic. But clearly we need a better term than "toxic masculinity" to describe that now that term has been buggered so badly.

I'm not about to wade through 37 pages here but whatever happened to " I have a penis, I'm a man.......I have a vagina, I'm a woman"......you cannot put a Mercedes badge on a Lada and call it a Mercedes.

My question to anybody who told me that they were "trans" would be "what were you born with between your legs, did you have a dick or a fanny"

Why would you think that asking that question would insult somebody if they tried to tell me they were "trans" which if you pardon the pun is "a load of boll*cks"

I would more than likely get an answer like "well I was born a man...but"

As i have said before it is ok to disagree with Trans ideology but I just see no need in being uncivil to other people. It just damages the Anti- Woke cause.

It seems the Trans Issue is being talked about 90% of the time when wokeness is being referred to. The wokeism of the day thread that existed on boards for a while just seem to be all about slagging off Trans people.

Arrogant would probably be a better word to describe someone who thinks they know someone they've only just met better than that person knows themselves.

that does that mean? an under 18 cant consent to getting a tattoo , yet you have no problem with drugs where no medical condition exists and where in other countries under 18's can have their tits yeeted?

Couldn't this argument be made to withhold any form of medication from a minor?

Well if knowing what I was born as is arrogant then so be it.

Not relevant to the argument presented. I didn't say knowing yourself, I said knowing someone else.

The problem there appears to be the practioners, not the actual medicine, no?