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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,559 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    I saw a presentation from esri a while back and it was one of the bullets that stood out to me. I can't remember where they got the data from. I'll ask.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,020 ✭✭✭Shoog


    It's rate of commissioning of new plants has slowed dramatically, and it plans for further expansion has also slowed. This is been driven by the significantly faster roll out of all forms of renewables which are considerably cheaper for them to put on their grid.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,559 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    There'll be 1 more interconnector to Europe by 2050 beyond Celtic, maybe 2 if they go with a multipurpose hybrid.

    Just because it's in a report doesn't mean it'll happen. Spain don't want any interconnectors, especially one through the ultra deep Bay of Biscay. There's no benefit in crossing the English Channel to Belgium or the Netherlands when the same level of market integration can be achieved by another to France. Don't even think about the UK, they're busy restricting ramp rates and using any other mechanism they can to avoid paying for interconnector services. You also have to remember that every additional interconnector reduces the business case for every other interconnector. They only work when there's a price difference between markets (that overcomes the losses).



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,559 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme



    How's those locational auctions that never happened working out? Perhaps Eirgrid's records of them are flooded by not dredging the Dodder? Or maybe they were stopped because of all the "overrunning"?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,020 ✭✭✭Shoog


    The gate system did exactly what I described, so you can stop crowing. It was a significant brake on renewables as massive queues built up for each gate.

    As you pointed out yourself the roll out of renewables has been relatively dismal so far, and the reason is that the grid has not built enough infrastructure to allow the renewables industry to expand. The gates were the method to throttle connection demand to the grid upgrades lackluster pace.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,591 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    By the end of 2022, the cost of the 575 KM extension lead to France has soared to $1.6 billion. The Marinus link laying down two 750-megawatt undersea cables between Australia and Tasmania (375 KM) recently had it's costs blow out to $3.3 to $5.5 billion. There is also the basslink cable in that part of the world whose operators went bankrupt and who experienced 2 major outages, that took months to fix. Fixing faults on undersea cables takes time, see UK/France inter-connector, not to mention the East West Interconnector (EWIC) fault a few years ago.

    Then we have to talk about the farcical Saudi Arabia of Wind business model for running all these inter-connectors between Ireland the UK and France. The people who live and work in Saudi get cheap petrol and diesel, will Irish consumers be getting cheap electricity from unreliable generators. Not a chance.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,559 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    The Gate system was not an auction so you can stop pretending you are some sort of knowledgeable historian on the topic. You didn't even know there was a Gates system till I explained it to you after you kept incorrectly referring to auctions.

    The Dept and Regulator were the architect to that approach and instructed Eirgrid and Esb to process applications in a particular order to manage a queue of 28GW with no coordination between projects. I don't know how many times it has to be explained to you but the goal was to connect sufficient renewables to meet 2020 targets in a cost effective manner i.e. share transmission connection assets where feasible, to keep overall costs down. That goal was met in 2020 so I don't know where you get your conspiracies about Eirgrid and Esb from. They were hardly expected to accommodate all 28GW (a lot of which was speculation by anyone who paid a modest application fee) in an unplanned manner with a criss-cross spiderweb of connections, all at the electricity bill payers expense?

    All 4GW of Gate 3 offers were issued by 2013, leaving developers with a whopping 7 years to deliver their allegedly "shovel ready" projects. Given some only connected in 2021, I get the impression that it wasn't the system operators who forgot to take off the handbrake.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,559 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    To be fair to interconnectors, or at least to Ewic, it doesn't make a cent for EirGrid. Any profits goes back to the Irish electricity customers by reducing tariffs.

    You raise a good point. Maybe there's a case that all developments should be vertically integrated into a state owned entity again rather than pseudo cartels masquerading as competition? That way the public interest could be met without lots of semi state companies bidding against each other like Esb, Bord na Mona, Coillte, Ervia etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,110 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    I have already shown you that China has presently 21 new nuclear power plants under construction, has just add a further 6 new reactors, and is planning to construct 6 - 8 new nuclear plants each year for the foreseeable future, yet somehow that is China rolling back on its nuclear plans 😕

    Where you got the same idea as regards France I have no idea, but perhaps you missed Macron`s plan placing nuclear power at the heart of their drive for carbon neutrality by 2050 and the approval by a large majority (402/130) in March this year of those plans by the French Parliament.

    As too these considerably cheaper renewables added to the grid, I`m still waiting for your cost for the green favoured 38GW offshore wind plan for 60 years, when based on the Finnish cost, even with all the delays and over-runs, the comparative cost for here of nuclear would be roughly €35 Billion.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,607 ✭✭✭ps200306


    "No one is going to reject already built nuclear power onto that grid, that would be childish."

    So you must think German Chancellor Scholz and Federal Climate Action Minister Habeck are pretty childish. When they signed a deal with Canada to supply a million tons per year of green hydrogen they stipulated that the input energy not include any of the abundant Canadian nuclear.

    And while Irish and German purchases of French nuclear electricity is not childish, it's definitely hypocritical.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,607 ✭✭✭ps200306


    One of the things that amuses me about the Green ideologues is that they are quick to rubbish nuclear on the basis of cost overruns, delays, and maintenance issues ... but never seem curious about why those problems occur or whether they can be fixed. Meanwhile they blame delays in rollout of renewables on grid operators, planners etc. etc. All the while claiming that price reductions in renewable technology will lower overall costs.

    Nuclear is an industry just starting to recover from decades in the doldrums. A lot of the impetus for building Gen 2 reactors happened in the 70s due to the twin oil crises. By the 80s, anti-nuke activism was well under way. Nuclear came under unusually intense regulatory scrutiny and public opposition which added to costs. The golden era of Gen 2 plant construction was already over by the end of the 70s in the US and the 80s in France. But nuclear was already contributing a sizable fraction of national needs in both countries in that short space of time, and France had the highest share of nuclear energy generation in the world.

    Forty years has elapsed since the heyday. The upshot is that new nuclear now faces a dearth of construction experience, continuing regulatory bureaucracy, the need for new Gen 3 and 4 reactor designs, and an existing fleet that has been running for up to half a century. Two new Gen 3 reactors -- the Westinghouse AP-1000 and the Areva EPR -- were still being designed during their first project build outs. They have led to something of a fiasco at Vogtle in Georgia USA and Flamanville in Normandy (both of them being number 3 reactors on existing nuclear sites). Reports on both sites have blamed construction contractor delays and poor project management. There is nothing wrong with the reactor technology itself, although EPR is too complicated and will be simplified in a redesign.

    Given the age of France's existing fleet and the specific piping issues found at 12 reactors last year, the overall fleet still has a remarkably high uptime and capacity factor. New reactor designs have had teething trouble, but that can be overcome. They aren't much different in that regard from renewable technologies. That's assuming you take the overall process required to get renewables online into account, and not just a crane erecting a single wind turbine in a matter of days.

    Post edited by ps200306 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭deholleboom


    You take away most barriers on nuclear power plants and keep a solid safety standard and trusted design concepts and you can get a standard fission plant up running in about 5 to 6 years. That is what China is doing.

    If you want to have less hydrocarbons at least start doing with nuclear energy what they are doing w wind and solar namely fix the regulation issue. Fair is fair, no?

    But of course the greens are against it. They love eliminating the competition just like the oil companies. Makes for strange bed fellows..



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,381 ✭✭✭WishUWereHere


    Sorry, I have put Dacor on ignore but am I picking up this correctly when he/she says carbon tax takings are being used on other monetary needs for inefficiently run departments? If that’s the case, I only hope the greens come knocking on my door come the next election. Said it all along they are the greatest BS’ers in politics, this revelation only cements that thought.



  • Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭deholleboom


    A summary of how the system of climate science lies works. For anyone still unfamiliar with this and greens don't want you to see.The methodology starts around 15 minutes (for those who want a shorter summary)

    A lot of the greens posting here are guilty of many of the elements in this presentation. They will of course ignore it..



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,559 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    Yes, that seems to be the case. The greens get to feel all warm and fuzzy for helping those less fortunate with their stealth taxes despite giving on the one hand but taking it away on the other lest the recipient try to heat their home, power appliances or travel somewhere. The solution - use less. Meanwhile, aforementioned Green jets off on their 3rd international trip of the year after driving to the airport in their ultra heavy EV...



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,020 ✭✭✭Shoog




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,551 ✭✭✭roosterman71




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,551 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    @[Deleted User] , would ya mind addressing this? Where did I say the things I was accused of? Man up and show us and not move on happy to be a spoofer and bullshitter? Give yourself credibility



  • Registered Users Posts: 843 ✭✭✭m2_browning




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  • Registered Users Posts: 843 ✭✭✭m2_browning


    No wind is not considerably cheaper

    it will costs north of 200 billion to build and maintain 37GW of wind (at pre inflation prices) and then all of this will have to be replaced every 25ish years by an industry that doesn’t exist here at interest rates that are no longer zero

    As evidenced by our ever increasing electricity prices, for a while there you lot could blame the war but people are not thick as price of gas went back down prewar levels yet our electricity has not thanks to wind



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,559 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    We have a 5.5GW system in Ireland. Even if that doubled to 11GW demand, we'd have no need for 37GW of offshore wind. What would we do with it all? Where would it go? Europe won't want to pay for it considering they can source their own in the shallow North sea and not have to worry about transmission losses or €2Bn per 1GW interconnector from Ireland.

    Anyone who suggests any numbers higher than 5GW should be disregarded as it'll take a fleet of boats we don't have, just to service that amount.



  • Registered Users Posts: 843 ✭✭✭m2_browning


    That’s a good point did not think of that!

    who and how will this 37GW be sold when the European target for 2050 (in remote possibility it’s reached and doesn’t bankrupt countries) is 260GW

    For future historians reading this thread and trying to understand where it all went wrong for Ireland and Europe and why they have to spend hundreds of billions every 25 years, here is a screenshot of this madness

    Source: https://marine-ireland.ie/node/901



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,551 ✭✭✭roosterman71




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,551 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    Offshore wind company Orsted is trouble

    If, or indeed when, we don't meet targets for wind energy, expect higher taxes (probably carbon taxes) to "encourage" users to more sustainable variants of power/life. And as @[Deleted User] showed yesterday, that money is mostly going to social welfare recipients, or local authorities to do surveys. Other sectors will have to pick up the slack for energys potential failures.



  • Registered Users Posts: 843 ✭✭✭m2_browning


    Yep they were one of the companies to cancel massive offshore wind projects in US, I pointed out at time that same technical and economic issues are here, probably worse here as we don’t have an offshore sector nor a Biden government showering everyone with billions in subsidies and higher interest rates here with an almost nonexistent financial sector



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭KildareP


    It's not conspiracies, far from it, it's classic deflection and it's the name of the game:

    • If we fall short of our targets, we should have moved quicker
    • If we simply can't meet our targets, it's because we're not ambitious enough
    • If infrastructure meets objections, then they should be allowed to overrule the planning process
    • If high tension grid infrastructure is not available on a whim at any random point in this island someone fancies throwing together a windfarm or a solar array, it's ESB/Eirgrid/the government/the local county council's fault
    • If infrastructure simply doesn't exist (grid scale hydrogen), we should spend lots of money to invent it - cost doesn't matter!
    • If we run into brownout/blackout scenarios, it's because we should be using less energy (but keep buying your EV's and heatpumps folks)

    Nothing will ever be their fault - for example, pursuing technologies or solutions that either don't work at an economic level, or outright defy the most basic and fundamental laws of physics and engineering.

    And for all the crowing about nuclear costs, ask for a pricetag for the all renewable equivalent and.... radio silence. That's if you're not just branded a climate change denier or a right wing wackjob.

    As the saying goes, an answer for everything and a solution for nothing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,419 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    I wasn't making an argument. The study that just came out specifically said 'at least 125k years, in that was the distance back in time that they could be confident of the data

    It's not a conspiracy

    Also, it's not cherry picking to say 'from now, to 125k years in the past, it has never been warmer globally than it is today

    What is cherry-picking is to say something like 'it was warmer in one specific place, for one period of time x number of years ago, therefore climate change is natural'

    That would be distorting the argument, to try to disprove a global average with reference to a local or regional climate, because we know and all scientists acknowledge, that there is greater variability locally, than there is globally



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,559 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    How convenient. Confident in their data but only to the day after the previous hottest day. You might not have cherry picked but that doesn't mean it didn't happen here.



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