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Public Pay Talks - see mod warning post 4293

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,288 ✭✭✭Ezeoul


    Pull the other one.

    You weren't agreeing with me. You read a post that someone went from CO to AP in five years and thought it was somethng that happens regularly.

    For the record, I never told you not to post.

    I suggested limiting yourself to posting on what you have knowledge of, and by your own admittance now for the second time, civil / public service admin grades is not someothing you have knowledge of.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,705 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Have there been any updates from the unions side on where things are at or indeed what they are focussing on?

    Union member here and I like many others, are a bit dis-illusioned with the lack of direct communication from the union on this situation - granted there maybe general news articles but I would like to get some directed comms on it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭reggie3434


    The nature of public service roles suits family life and security that make it's attractive to many (not saying it should only be family people and no singles either). I joined CS as it suited my lifestyle, I've found a place where work is interesting and enjoy the security/ flexibility of the role. TBH I'd struggle in the private sector (the aul noggin has a bit of the crazy!) even though the money would be better, I think I was a bit strident in that post, maybe a better way of saying would be there will be a compromise on whatever path you choose.

    Speaking of the noggin I'm gonna check out, I find when I'm getting this involved in chats it's a good sign the gremlins are waking up, I do hope we get a decent raise.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,705 ✭✭✭✭kippy




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,288 ✭✭✭Ezeoul


    Me too.

    I emailed the Union this morning about the comments made by Paschal, if I hear anything back, I'll post.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I've mailed my union on a few things in the past year and heard nothing back. Not exactly earning my contribution



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,963 ✭✭✭bren2001


    Sorry, explain to me how "most people would bite your hand off for 5 years to 70k. The vast majority out of college (even in tech roles) are nowhere near that." is me indicating that is the normal. Most people would bite your hand off because it is so rare. I really don't see how that is confusing.

    The median wage in Ireland is around €44k (I don't have the exact figure). How in Gods name do you think I believe its normal to 70k in 5 years in the public sector? That literally makes zero sense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,288 ✭✭✭Ezeoul


    So totally ignoring the context of the psots that went before? Ok then.

    To borrow your phrase "I'm not gettng into the weeds of this" with you.

    My advice stands - stick to what you know.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,963 ✭✭✭bren2001


    I'll post whatever I like thank you very much. Its a public forum. You can simply choose to ignore it if you don't think its relevant. I don't need your censorship.

    Please actually read peoples posts in future before incorrectly stating the meaning of what they wrote.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,288 ✭✭✭Ezeoul




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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    We have a Sec grade 8, 2xgrade 7, and a grade 5. All are massively underpaid (i'm not in with them)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 403 ✭✭skidmarkoner


    Agreed boards chats turn gremlins on full swing online and IRL time for a snickers



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,397 ✭✭✭✭Turtyturd


    We looked into this in my old department. We were really struggling to keep CO’s even though the pay was above the regular scale, and the responsibility/work CO’s were expected to do was above the grade. The EO’s who’d gotten the position on merit weren’t too happy with the suggestion (understandable) and it would’ve essentially resulted in a situation where nobody other than the HEO has any authority, and it also would’ve pushed a lot the duties of 3 EO’s in different sections onto the HEO.


    This was a very specific environment though so not sure how it would go in the general CS.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,586 ✭✭✭caviardreams


    Tbf I think having different grades which enables career progression is good.

    But back to pay talks - any update before xmas?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,288 ✭✭✭Ezeoul


    Oh I'd well believe it.

    You only have to look at how quickly the "don't devalue my grade" or "no one will go for promotion!" responses that come out, when its suggested that CO pay be increased by an extra couple of percentage.

    I think a restructuring of the admin grades might have to happen though. But unlikely to happen before I retire.

    Post edited by Ezeoul on


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,262 ✭✭✭combat14


    education in country at tipping point due to pay, cost of living and teacher shortage crisis:


    Schools warn they may have to keep classes at home due to teacher shortages

    Extent of struggle to fill vacant teaching posts revealed in correspondence between principals and Department of Education



    Minister for Education Norma Foley has acknowledged that some schools are experiencing challenges in recruiting teachers, but emphasised that the vast majority of sanctioned teacher positions are filled.

    Some schools have warned the Department of Education they may be forced to take emergency measures such as keeping classes at home in the face of acute difficulties sourcing qualified teachers.

    The impact of shortages and the effect on pupils is revealed in communications between school leaders and the Department of Education during the current academic year, released to The Irish Times under the Freedom of Information Act.

    Principals say the supply of substitute teachers has reached “crisis point”, with problems most acute in the greater Dublin area due to the rising cost of accommodation. Correspondence shows some of the greatest difficulties are being experienced by special schools who are struggling to find qualified staff.

    “We find ourselves in an uncharted and unprecedented time,” warned one special school principal, who did not receive any qualified applicants for three vacant teaching posts.

    The principal said one solution could involve limiting school days for some classes to three days for one week and two days the following week.


    “For health and safety reasons it’s not possible to operate without teachers/full complement of adults in classrooms,” the principal warned. “Teachers are moving to schools closer to their homes due to the rising costs of living. Young teachers cannot find accommodation in Dublin.”


    Mainstream schools have also warned that recruitment efforts have regularly failed to attract qualified applicants. “The board of management has not been able to fill this post through interview as no qualified teacher wishes to take up the post. We have interviewed to fill fixed term posts on two occasions over the summer and have not yet filled all our year-long fixed term posts,” one principal said.


    Another added: “I have had no applications from suitable candidates and the closing date is tomorrow. Presently I am struggling to fill permanent and fixed-term contracts in my school. Many schools in Clondalkin and the greater Dublin area are struggling also...The situation is quite dire!!”


    Another school expressed frustration at applicants not turning up for interviews. “I am literally having sleepless nights about this. I have spent all of my summer holidays engaged with this and feel I have had no head space to take a break from school after an extremely stressful year with high-needs pupils. I am aware from speaking to other principals that this is the case in many schools. I feel aggrieved about the lack of support from the Department of Education with this matter,” the principal wrote.


    The principal of a Deis school said schools in disadvantaged areas faced even greater challenges.


    “This summer holiday has been absolutely exhausting searching for teachers – interviewing and then people finding something more suitable; current teachers contacting me to say they are relocating out of Dublin as they cannot afford to live here; other teachers saying they do not know how much longer they will be able to stay’; new teachers accepting the post accommodation pending – these are just a few examples...could go on but I’m tired, really tired, and worn out.”


    Minister for Education Norma Foley has acknowledged that “schools in certain locations are experiencing challenges in both recruiting teachers and obtaining substitute teachers”, but emphasised that the vast majority of sanctioned teacher positions were filled.


    She said Budget 2024 contained a range of measures to address teacher supply such as financial incentives for newly-qualified teachers graduating next year and the restoration of middle-management posts in schools.

    While shortages appear most acute in the greater Dublin area, schools from across the State have reported difficulties. Many schools say they have resorted to redeploying special education teachers to mainstream classes even though this deprives the most vulnerable pupils of support.


    (irish times)



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    "Preliminary discussions have stalled over union calls for a new process or mechanism to handle claims by groups of staff or ‘grades’ without infringing a central rule of successive pay deals.


    This is the requirement that there are no further cost-increasing claims once an across-the-board agreement on pay is reached."


    This is really needed and needs to be locked in



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,755 ✭✭✭lbunnae


    So is this the unions wanting them to be able to negotiate for certain sectors even affer a general deal has been reached? I can see why the gov dont want that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,262 ✭✭✭combat14


    prob needed for sectors facing significant staff shortages

    the last thing the 14 billion social welfare giveaway government needs before a general election is industrial unrest



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,755 ✭✭✭lbunnae




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,043 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    A while back I got into a taxi that was driven by a retired ex-garda who drove ministers around. As someone in teaching a conversation occurred in the public sector and both us agreed that neither of us would enter public service in Ireland if we were entering now. He asked me when it all changed and I stated "2008, at the time of the economic crash" and he immediately agreed. That period was, of course, a very difficult period for everyone in the country especially those who lost jobs. Yet the country recovered but there was never any incentive from the politicians to recover the public service from ten years of cuts. These cuts, by and large, still remain as the likes of FG boast of record surpluses. It feels as if the public sector is stuck in permanent austerity.

    Now there are posters on here who are, by and large, quite immature. They don't like public servants especially teachers (an Irish thing) and just make up stuff and/or refuse to accept the facts of what the media are reporting on an almost daily basis re the public sector. Yet the neglect of the public service is having consequences on policing, education, health and other vital services. We are also literally spending large sums of money educating our youth for the benefit of other countries, especially for the Middle East. Furthermore the political will (among FF/FG) is not there to improve the situation other than to bring immigrants into the country instead with, for example, the Teaching Council now making a requirement for Irish exempt for those from abroad wanting to teach in primary schools.

    As a country we model ourselves on the UK anyway where permanent austerity on the public service is also an issue over the past 13 years of tory government. They've deliberately screwed themselves over with brexit but I'm not quite sure what our excuse is. The sort of people in political office in both countries don't respect public servants. They're of a different Thatcherite mindset where banks, corporations and the powerful who attend Davos are the entities they listen to.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,043 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    The weakest unions in Europe are in Ireland. They play the same trick every couple of years - marching their members up the hill with threats of industrial action before marching them back down again and accepting below inflation "rises".

    There are only ever a small number of people in the negotiating room anyway as most unions fall in under the umbrella of ICTU.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    of course they don't but that inflexibility leaves us scrambling when market forces change, IT being my personal example



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    And schools/wards/IT roles isn't chaos, just hidden by middle management and departments?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,038 ✭✭✭Daith


    but there isn't a separate IT grade, so that would need to be created (or added to Engineer grade) first. Which is something DPER or whoever could do if they wanted. I don't think IT roles are considered that important by them regardless of what is said on here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 488 ✭✭Metalpanic


    Yeah I have to agree with this. I have witnessed this drop off of investment in the PS for a long time now. In my role I move between locations in a couple of buildings. One does not have properly functioning heating/hot water. Frequently has a rodent problem and a leaking roof that just never manages to get resolved. Another (newer) building has leaking roof and poor drainage system that cause flooding in the basement and a dodgy HVAC system. Newest of the buildings is better but still issues with HVAC and facilities that makes working there painful. I have had to pull office chairs out of skips when department will not replace broken ones. Eaten lunch with a bucket collecting water dripping from the ceiling beside me. Been sent home/to another location when the temperature of the room dropped below working limits. From what I have seen personally, this is reflected in schools, hospitals, offices throughout the PS and CS.

    What has this got to do with pay talks? Pay is the only condition we have some modicum of influence over while working in squalor in some cases.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'm literally walking into an offfice where the lower admin staff have been without heating/aircon for the past 3 years, before/during/after the pandemic


    Just the week getting finished



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,043 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    The ultimately irony is that those in the public service making the decision live very comfortably indeed - i.e. the politicians & senior civil service. No expense is spared at the top and the largesse carries on. At present the Department of Health in Hawkins St is undergoing a massive redevelopment/rebuilding and I doubt they'll work in the environment you describe.

    It is also the case that senior civil servants and/or senior management in the public service in government departments cover up for lack of investment by using the media to attack public servants at the coalface. The Dept of Education does this obsessively on teachers. Health does the same whenever doctors and nurses raise issues. Also happening in Justice re AGS. All leads to ever depressing morale



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  • Registered Users Posts: 488 ✭✭Metalpanic


    Wow, just not on. Especially given the heightened awareness of air quality around the pandemic. I have thought a few times, how can schools pack 30+ kids into a classroom with rubbish heating and no ventilation when office workers wouldn't sit in it. Anyway, I know this is off topic, but it feeds in to the mindset of a large portion of the CS/PS I feel.



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