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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,559 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    System curtailment. It happens regularly when the amount of asynchronous generation exceeds what is safe for the grid to accommodate. Currently the limit is 75%.

    Its not quite as simple as made out here though. Had users been told to turn on their immersion (assuming they needed hot water), they'd have still been charged retail prices. More wind would have been accommodated but every 7.5MW of extra wind would also need 2.5MW of extra conventional plant. The next 1MW of conventional is typically more expensive than the last, so it would drive up the overall price in the balancing market (giving even more money to the wind farms along with every other generator). Unintended but costly consequences of what superficially looks like a great opportunity.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I didn't see the post, happy to respond 😊

    Where did I say all the tax? Never said that. Never said I didn't want retrofitting either. Never said I was against the just transition for the peat areas. Can you read what I type? Or if you are unsure, ask my thoughts instead of assuming and then going off arguing about something that was never said. Thanks.

    You stated

    But isn't agricultural the bold boy in the class, then why aren't they getting the share of the carbon tax to help things?

    Rather than be a grammar nazi and point out poor phrasing, I took it that you meant "the lions share". That is all however if thats not what you meant fair enough

    It's an interesting take on things that agri, the "largest polluter", is fine to go without as much funding as the issue would seem to need until 2030.

    As you well know, the agri sector is benefitting from many streams of climate related funding, this is merely one other. Again, you seem to be suggesting that more of the funds should be allocated to agri so this time I'll ask you, given the size of the fund and its current share of the carbon tax fund (its only funding source), you have 3 choices of ways to increase the agri amount from the fund. Either you divert from retrofitting or JT or you increase the carbon tax. Thats it. Can you explain how much you would divert and why its ok to impact those or how much you would increase the carbon tax by and why.

    You are advocating seeing sectors show they can change and are making positive changes before funding is allocated in any meaningful way. Call me a cynic, but if sectors are showing improvements without funding then why would funding be given in future?

    If the agri sector is able to improve without funding I'll be shocked. History shows its unlikely though as the agri sector focus for decades has been about sucking as much as they can from the public purse while lobbying to do as little in return for the public that does not benefit them directly. Typically improvements have had to be tied directly to payments to ensure that even a half baked effort is made. Between that and minimal light touch enforcement of regulations, we are where we are.

    What I did clarify earlier as regards funding, maybe you missed it, was where I stated

    By 2030 a lot of the retrofitting will be done and you would hope the JT regions would be largely well sorted at which point it would make sense to reassess.

    Now post-2030 the carbon tax will likely go from a 7.50 eur annual increase to a 15 eur annual increase and I would expect the agri sector to get a larger share at that point and I would also expect transport and LULUCF to also get pulled in at that point. Right now however, I see little progress that warrants such a reallocation



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Jaysus, I knew we were off target but I didn't realize how far off. Looks like much more work needs to be done asap if we are to stand any chance of meeting the targets

    According to a report published by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) earlier this year, emissions in Ireland fell by just 2% in 2022

    As a result, the country is projected to achieve only a 29% emissions reduction by 2030 — 22% lower than the 51% objective set out in the Climate Action and Low Carbon Development (Amendment) Bill of 2021.




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Our historical emissions are going to prove costly it seems, approx 1.5 billion a year if this report is anything to go by




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,551 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    I suppose ya have accepted ya misread things. Good. Room to improve.

    Agri is benefitting from some streams, but evidently, not enough,. If it's the biggest polluter, then it should be targeted more to do more. Wouldn't that be fair to say? Just transition, to me, seems like a joke for local authorities to do some training, go out count some wildlife, do a few surveys, etc. The link you provided lists all this and very little seems to be of substance. Last week I was at 3 different conferences related to climate work. All stated that local authorities need to do more. Just this morning I seen a council worker (or contractor) tip up the road on a quad spraying weeds along the side of the road and footpath. Isn't that bullshit? On Monday I was on Grafton street and watched 2 council workers (or contractors) blowing leaves along the street with petrol leaf blowers. The hilarious thing about that is they then went down Suffolk street past the head office of the Green party. If I was to cut something it would be surveys and rubbish like that and spend the money on things that may actually make a difference. I'd also get rid of the carbon tax as you've shown yourself, it is a tax not primarily used for it's intended purposes - reduce carbon and pollution. From the figures you showed €21m out of €70m is spent on a fuel allowance, which is then spent on fossil fuels. Is that what the carbon tax was intended for? There's only €3m for EV charging, yet EVs are being pushed as a saviour. The money is being pissed away and apart from a retrofitting programme which is now spiraling cost wise too that special loans have to be introduced.

    No sector will improve without funding. The agri sector, for decades, have been following the science and doing what the department and Teagasc have being recommending. There was an about turn a few years ago and then everyone turned on agri for doing what they were told/asked/recommended. Agri don't "suck from the public purse". They are subsidised to produce cheap food with quality, though the payments have been decoupled for a long time now from food production and reward landowners instead. Any scheme that makes sense, and is viable is taken up with great gusto. Look at REPs which increased tree and hedge over across the country, and then was canned. Look at the money spent on LESS. You're knowledge of agriculture, how it works, the schemes and the work it's doing and has done isn't an area you understand. But I can help you :-)

    Also, don't forget, out of all the sectors with climate plans, agriculture is the only one that has plans in place, plans in execution and has shown a reduction. Yet some eNGOs rank then lower than every other sector.

    One more little titbit. I've been looking at houses that in 2006 were built on a field that floods regularly. The crash happened and the site was abandoned. Some houses were up but people with criminal tendancies wrecked them, pulling wires and copper and leaving those house built in bits. Some were even burnt down. In the last 12 months, the site has reopened and houses are being repaired and put on the market (cheapest is €299k). None of these have any renewable tech. No solar panels, no heat pumps - nothing. How can they do that? Well, technically they aren't "new" houses and aren't obliged to put some in. Oil burners and tanks in each tiny garden. New pipes and radiators inside. And they got SEAI grants to improve their BER because the original windows and doors were rubbish. But if you or anyone else wants to build they will be mandated to put at least one renewable source in, and no grants available for one or subsequent measures taken. System isn't fair is it?



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    China is adding nuclear plants, sure, but again, they are filling a niche only

    Wind and solar rollout in China are leaving it for dust. They now get more energy from solar, wind & hydro

    It says a lot that even in China, nuclear can't move beyond a niche source, so while there may be a couple of new reactors opening, the overall share doesn't look like it will increase too much

    Now they do have a lot of work to do on coal, but it looks like the renewable expansion is already making the coal plants unviable, even in China



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I suppose ya have accepted ya misread things. Good. Room to improve.

    If you wish to be childish I'll note to point out all future grammar issues to you, your choice

    The rest of your post is just a collection of whataboutery and has not answered the question I put to you



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,110 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    This whole offshore plan is typical green thinking. Latching on to an idea without any idea of the cost or consequences and then doubling down each time it is shown to them how daft the idea is.


    When they finally accepted that for long periods wind levels all over Europe dropped to virtually nothing ( providing just 6% and lower of demand here), they came up with this 37GW offshore brainfart of wind + hydrogen. Still unable to provide any costs, or not honest enough too as they know it kill their insane idea before it even got in the water.


    What we do know is that just for the offshore part of this plan, if you could call it a plan, the capital cost would be anywhere between €140 Billion and €220 Billion with further major capital costs ever 20 -25 years. All to be paid for by the consummer + the cost of generation + a profit margin + all the associated hydrogen costs (manufacture, storage and distribution) + the desalination cost of the plants required and their operation costs, and just to add a cherry on top, Ryan has guaranteed these offshore operators that consummers will also pay for any and all electricity generated even if we do not need or use it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,551 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    WTF are ya on about? Childish shite now would be to start critiquing grammar. Is it incomprehensible? Do you not understand what's being written?

    And I answered. I said just transition funding should be cut. Even gave reasons why. I'll just pick the line out for ya

    If I was to cut something it would be surveys and rubbish like that and spend the money on things that may actually make a difference.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The whataboutery you listed have little to do with JT

    Before you deprive the JT areas of funding you should have a read up on the purpose of it. I would strongly disagree with a reduction in funding for those areas. They are among the first impacted by our moves to reduce emissions and have to be supported. Why you deem these areas unworthy of vital support is honestly a bit cruel imho



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,551 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    I didn't say deprive them did I? Again, you read and register something different. I said it should be cut and not be wasting money on surveys and other such crap in local authorities. They aren't really impacted but the people employed by the likes of BnaM, and other industries serving them. They need to be helped no doubt but county councils don't need money to count barn owls. The whataboutery showed that LA authorities are spending money on things they don't need (spraying kerbside weeds in NOVEMBER (lunacy)) or blowing weeds around prior to a storm using petrol blowers. If they have money for that crap, they have money to count owls without dipping into the JT fund



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,110 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    China has presently 24 new nuclear power plants under construction, they have just added a further 6 new reactors to already operational plants and are planning to add a further 6 - 8 new nuclear plants year on year for the foreseeable future. As @Shoog said they really are rolling back on their nuclear power plant plans 😅



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    As I said and showed, those plants account for a decimal point of a % share of their electricity generation. At less than 5% of total generating capacity, nuclear is a niche source even in China



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,559 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    Thing is though, they'll be base load and displacing carbon once available. Variable generation that's here today and gone tonight/tomorrow is less useful.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The energy security review is complete and has been released




  • Registered Users Posts: 15,110 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    As I said and showed @Shoog`s notion that China and France are " rolling back" on their plans for new nuclear power plants is a nonsense, but perhaps you also believe they should both follow the insane green policy of all eggs in the renewable basket ?

    While that 5% generating capacity might seem small to you, if you compare it to offshore wind it is 12.5%, for onshore 18%, higher again for solar at around 23% and it will deliver that 5% year on year for up to 60 years regardless of weather without any further major capital investment costs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,559 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    There's a lot of reading there but my initial thoughts are that the 4 proposed focus areas aren't worth a damn if a global shock (war) broke out in the morning:

    • 1. Reduced and Responsive Demand
    • 2. A Renewables-Led System
    • 3. More Resilient Systems
    • 4. Robust Risk Governance

    Energy security should ensure sufficient reliable indigenous production to meet our needs. Anything else is just lip service. Last time I checked, you can't spin a turbine using "robust risk governance". Basically it's a 76 page document that can be distilled to Item 1-> reduce demand (all the way to zero if necessary and wait for someone else to bail us out).



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Regardless of what you or I think, China is undergoing massive expansion and rollout of renewables. It's investment in nuclear is tiny by comparison



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,305 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Ireland is never going to have nuclear power, not in our lifetime anyway. So not sure why all these threads get dragged down into this discussion because it is pointless. We have interconnects to UK and will have one soon to France and yes we will probably end up using nuclear power but we won't be building on on this island.

    The plan is shared above and I don't see any huge change to this and I don't see any party in Ireland talking about nuclear.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,020 ✭✭✭Shoog


    I think DaCors post adequately illustrated where China is putting it's money and it certainly isn't nuclear.

    As for your Finnish claims, I think that has been adequately deconstructed on the Nuclear Infrastructure thread, but suffice it to say that the two main contractors almost went broke over it and it took 10 years and 10billion more than promised. Hardly a shining example of nuclear superiority.

    But as I say, its been done to death elsewhere.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,591 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    First pass on this: gov.ie - Energy Security in Ireland to 2030 (www.gov.ie). It avoids quantifying the elephant in the room, unreliable generation and dances around the edges of the topic.

    A demand-side risk can occur where there is the possibility of sudden increases in energy demand over a relatively short period of time that cannot be met by corresponding increases in supply. Demand-side risks are generally caused by weather-related events such as cold snaps or periods of low wind or a combination of these events. Ireland’s supply-side risks will reduce as it increases its renewable energy generation. However, these demand-side risks will increase as we transition away from fossil fuels such as coal and oil, and weather events impact on the availability of renewables such as wind and solar power. The dependence of the electricity system on natural gas is expected to increase in the short- to medium-term, particularly at times of very low wind. In addition, the peak day demand for natural gas is expected to increase. This means the electricity system will continue to rely on natural gas as a fuel source as it transitions to a majority-renewables system and phases out natural gas in the medium-term.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,110 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Contrary to wherever you got the idea that not just China, but also France, were rolling back on their nuclear energy plans I have shown that if anything the opposite is true.

    You came up with the statement that renewables were considerably cheaper to put on the grid. I have shown that even after all the delays, hold-ups and cost over-runs the equivalent here for 100% of our needs would cost €35 Billion. We know that just for the capital cost alone of this offshore 37GW plan to do the same would cost anywhere between €140 Billion and €220 Billion with further major oddshore capital investments ever 20 -25 years.

    Seeing as the you made the statement that renewables were considerably cheaper than nuclear then it`s up to you to either back up that statement or do what every other green has to date done when asked the same, run away.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    There's plenty of info out there on the cost comparison of various energy sources

    Nuclear comes out among the worst, consistently, regardless of the measure used. This has been shown time and again on the nuclear thread so I'm not sure how you missed it. Its literally the main reason why nuclear will never be anymore than a niche generation option




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,020 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Charles14 has been denying that reality on the nuclear thread for as long as I have been reading it.

    It's a bit tedious that he is spamming this thread now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,110 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    With a totally uncosted plan that would end up costing, (being generous), a minimum of €200 Billion for a population of 5 million with even more money being thrown at it every 20 -25 years, then despite all the greens efforts to kill such a conversation then it`s past time we did.

    The greens would like to have people believe that there is no interest in nuclear here. The fact is that a Think Ireland poll over two years ago found that there was an even split, 43% in favor 43% oppposed, with the age group that the Green Party recieve the highest percentage of their vote from in the last GE, the 18 -24s, 60% were in favor.



  • Registered Users Posts: 843 ✭✭✭m2_browning


    But investment never the less unlike the dogmatic Greens here who don’t want to solve climate change despite the rhetoric

    all the apocalyptic posts about end of world we will burn blah blah are pointless as it’s clear you lot don’t actually want to solve anything and instead want to push the degrowth to Stone Age nonsense



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,020 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Hysterical much .

    There is a reason Nuclear is dying, and that is because it cannot get investors and it cannot compete on price. No amount of hysteria is going to get people to waste their money in it.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    We're back to the makey-uppey couple hundred billion stuff again? Its been a while



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,419 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    If feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall here.

    I'll leave it there



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,591 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    This is blatant in your face climate propaganda using tax payer funds against us.

    Mark Little and Carla O’Brien present Tomorrow Tonight, a scripted, docu-drama set 27 years in the future guiding viewers through the breaking news moments on a seismic night, as climate change pushes the planet to a moment of crisis!

    <snip>

    The programme will also report on the good news, including the Irish rural economy that has innovated and thrived despite the decline of traditional dairy and livestock farming. And, in Brazil we see a revitalised Amazon rainforest whose fate was placed in the hand of indigenous leaders in the late 2030s. source

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



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