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Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

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    #19352
    gotaf
    Registered Users Posts: 259 ✭✭gotaf


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369799#Comment_121369799

    You have no idea what the reality of the situation is though.



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    #19353
    KilOit
    Registered Users Posts: 2,994 ✭✭✭KilOit


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369835#Comment_121369835

    It has been reported that Hamas will not accept fuel handouts from Israel



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    #19354
    jmreire
    Registered Users Posts: 8,520 ✭✭✭jmreire


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369665#Comment_121369665

    Attacking any building or vehicle or in fact anything with the Red Cross / Red Crescent on it is a war crime, regardless of the circumstances, as far as I'm concerned.



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    #19355
    gotaf
    Registered Users Posts: 259 ✭✭gotaf


    https://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1724550386793480671

    Relief for them



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    #19356
    Hey boy
    Registered Users Posts: 812 ✭✭✭Hey boy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369782#Comment_121369782

    It didn’t stop the IRA going into hospitals. People have selective memories it seems.



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    #19357
    Jinglejangle69
    Registered Users Posts: 7,413 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369843#Comment_121369843

    It has been “reported”.

    Exactly.



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    #19358
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,427 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369843#Comment_121369843

    It has been reported that dead Palestinian children are dolls.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #19359
    sock.rocker*
    Registered Users Posts: 819 ✭✭✭sock.rocker*


    Never has Southpark been more relevant.. For both sides.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd0p96miSK8

    No, we haven't actually seen it Tom. We're just reporting it.



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    #19360
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,637 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369549#Comment_121369549

    People are fcuking delusional if they think what is happening now is leading to the end of Hamas.

    Israel is creating generations of Palestinians who will hate them passionately.

    Look at the UK this past weekend, EDF members who feel they're losing their country (they aren't) took to the streets looking for trouble chanting about their nationalism. US conservative groups marched in Charlottesville not so long ago chanting that they would not be replaced. The rallying cry of French, German, Italian nationalists is similarly railing at the perception that they are in some way losing their country. Hell, we even had cos-play nazi's come out in Ireland last week trying to paint the same picture.

    But for some reason, all these groups are on Israel's side as it butchers Palestinians and produces more fake news than we've seen since comical Ali.

    The path to killing Hamas is mainly convincing the Palestinian people that there is no need for a resistance group. Israel is going full speed in the opposite direction.



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    #19361
    sock.rocker*
    Registered Users Posts: 819 ✭✭✭sock.rocker*


    There is no desire to kill off Hamas in the same way that there is no desire for Palestine Authority to rule both Gaza and the West Bank. I'd even argue that the settlements in the West Bank are in the end designed to get Palestinians there to vote in Hamas.

    Netanyahu has legitimised Hamas rule over the last decade and has been reported to have said that keeping them in Gaza is important to stop Palestine Authority ruling both areas.

    If you are overtly settling an area illegally, even though you are being condemned by the international community up until a few months ago, then your goal is obviously a complete take over of that area. This is possible with Hamas, not with Palestine Authority.

    Of course there is a possibility that the likes of unkel will never be satisfied that Hamas have been killed so the killing must continue. You can't prove a negative after all.



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    #19362
    amandstu
    Registered Users Posts: 3,582 ✭✭✭amandstu


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369929#Comment_121369929

    Why in your view would it be possible for a complete Israeli take over of the(West Bank?) area with Hamas and not the PA?



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    #19363
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 65,414 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    @Tell me how - "The path to killing Hamas is mainly convincing the Palestinian people that there is no need for a resistance group. Israel is going full speed in the opposite direction."

    I can't say I agree. Once Hamas is removed, the international community (read: mostly the USA) will force a peace in the region, based on two states with proper self government by the Palestinians. Forcing Israel to remove westbank settlements, etc. Lots of international aid to rebuild Gaza (or wherever all parties agree the Gazans will live) and hopefully an Arab guarantor of no more violence coming from Gazans

    It's doable. Gazans will have a better life than they ever had under their chosen leadership of Hamas. The aggressors Germany and Japan were defeated in WW2 with millions of civilian casualties (and mass civilians targeted as such with no military target in sight - war crimes we call those these days) and within 10-15 years both were peaceful, very wealthy nations and they stayed that way

    My ads on adverts.ie

    https://www.adverts.ie/member/5856/ads



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    #19364
    amandstu
    Registered Users Posts: 3,582 ✭✭✭amandstu


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369937#Comment_121369937

    "I can't say I agree. Once Hamas is removed, the international community (read: mostly the USA) will force a peace in the region, based on two states with proper self government by the Palestinians. Forcing Israel to remove westbank settlements, etc. "

    How confident are you in such an outcome?

    My take was that ,once Hamas was removed Israel would have a freeish hand in whatever arrangements it wanted in the area.


    Am I too naive?



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    #19365
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,637 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369929#Comment_121369929

    Agreed. Hamas are a perfect bogeyman for Nethanyahu and his ilk to steal more Palestinian land.

    Am very disappointed as to why so much of the western world is facilitating him to do this. All this is doing is disturbing the region and inflaming anti-western sentiment within the Arabic community.



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    #19366
    sock.rocker*
    Registered Users Posts: 819 ✭✭✭sock.rocker*


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369935#Comment_121369935

    The logic would be to defeat Hamas and to keep the settlements safe, the area would have to be fully controlled by Israel, as is happening in Gaza. It's a country's wet dream for the land it wants to annex to be controlled by an internationally hated terrorist group.

    How do you get Hamas into power in the West Bank? By proving to the people there that Palestinian Authority didn't stop 600,000 Israelis from stealing the land and settling there. Appeals to the past and what was there thousands of years ago does not help the people being killed and displaced there today and it won't stop them from being radicalised.

    Israel is taking constant action to antagonise Palestinians and create this threat.



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    #19367
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,637 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369937#Comment_121369937

    Israel is not looking to remove Hamas, they are looking to remove Palestinians from Gaza and are using Hamas as justification for this.

    That's literally what they are saying.

    “Right now, one goal: Nakba! A Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of 48. Nakba in Gaza and Nakba to anyone who dares to join! their Nakba, because like then in 1948, the alternative is clear,” the Likud Party member wrote on X, formerly known as Twitter. Link


    Israel is annihilating Palestinian civilians in the Gaza ghetto, openly stating that the “emphasis is on damage, not accuracy.” Over 1,100 children, women, and men have already been massacred under Israel’s unrelenting bombing. Link


    Israel’s far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, says the “voluntary migration” of Palestinians in Gaza is the “right humanitarian solution” for the besieged enclave and for the region, a stance Palestinian officials liken to support of “ethnic cleansing”. Link


    Israeli troops raise flag 2 miles into Gaza for the first time in 18 years: Link



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    #19368
    sock.rocker*
    Registered Users Posts: 819 ✭✭✭sock.rocker*


    You can even see people here supporting the notion of the rest of the world taking in all Gazans in order to keep Israel safe. 40 countries * 50,000 people.

    As if they're cattle.



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    #19369
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,637 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369950#Comment_121369950

    Exactly, and these are the same people who are vehemently outraged at the idea of losing anything about their homeland that they perceive to be their God given right to maintain. And are on forums and discussion Boards all over the place calling for an end to countries taking refugees.

    Yeah, Palestinians, pack your sh!t up, you're moving.

    To where?

    I don't care.



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    #19370
    sock.rocker*
    Registered Users Posts: 819 ✭✭✭sock.rocker*


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369951#Comment_121369951

    It's just so intensely obvious they don't see them as people. How else can you try to justify the bombings of hundreds of people to kill one Hamas commander. It's like trying to justify My Lai because it might have killed one commander.



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    #19371
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,392 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369665#Comment_121369665

    I suspect it was not your intent to do a serious assessment, but to answer the question, the standard rules on proportionality apply.

    There is nothing in the laws about knowledge of the hospital occupants. It is the actions of the combatants which affect the protected status of the facility, they need not notify nor obtain the permission of the hospital. The Conventions are very open about the responsibilities of the other side as well as the one side.



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    #19372
    amandstu
    Registered Users Posts: 3,582 ✭✭✭amandstu


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369947#Comment_121369947

    Not sure I follow too well.

    You are saying that once Israel can get Hamas into power in the West Bank ,that would facilitate a complete Israeli take over of the West Bank?

    How?

    They would defeat Hamas there too?

    Or Hamas would be complicit in their overall control of the West Bank?



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    #19373
    sock.rocker*
    Registered Users Posts: 819 ✭✭✭sock.rocker*


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369959#Comment_121369959

    Israel receives international condemnation for killing and settling in the West Bank but they receive international support for bombing refugee camps and hospitals in Gaza. Yes, they would prefer for Hamas to be in control in the West Bank.

    The polls and lack of trust in Netanyahu in Israel would strongly suggest that Israelis feel this is the sort of thinking being used at the top end of this right-wing government.



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    #19374
    Jimi H
    Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭Jimi H


    Report that Israel built the bunkers and tunnels under the hospital in 1983. Seems this article is from 2014 although I’m unsure of the date

    http://www.thetower.org/0810-israelis-know-hamas-leaders-hiding-in-shifa-hospital-because-they-built-the-bunkers/




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    #19375
    sock.rocker*
    Registered Users Posts: 819 ✭✭✭sock.rocker*


    I cannot see any other logical explanation for the views of Israel when its leadership and supporters believe that a religion, not a people, owns a land for all of eternity, and thousands of years later, people of that religion are right and correct to move from their homelands in America etc. and take land from Palestinians already living there and settle it.

    Israel gives tax cuts to these people leaving their homelands to come and settle this ancient piece of land they believe is theirs because of their religion. It's like something you'd see in the 14th century. You may as well argue that pagans would be right to resettle Ireland and forcefully take the people's land.



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    #19376
    amandstu
    Registered Users Posts: 3,582 ✭✭✭amandstu


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369967#Comment_121369967

    So ,if they manoeuvred Hamas into power in the West Bank they would follow that up by attacking the West Bank because they suppose Hamas (and the Palestinians in the West Bank) would have no international support and so be "easy pickings"?


    Or would they leave Hamas in place because Hamas would be too weak to seriously attack again?


    An uneasy modus vivendi?



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    #19377
    sock.rocker*
    Registered Users Posts: 819 ✭✭✭sock.rocker*


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369982#Comment_121369982

    I believe that settlements would ramp up dramatically with the end goal being to remove Palestinians from being in control of the West Bank. You cannot settle hundreds of thousands of people in an area unless the end goal is for all of that area to be one cohesive part of your own nation.

    International condemnation is the one hinderance to doing this, and replacing moderate politics with extremists would remove than condemnation.



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    #19378
    amandstu
    Registered Users Posts: 3,582 ✭✭✭amandstu


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369983#Comment_121369983

    Is this just your own interpretation or is there a body of opinion which you know of that also thinks Israel has an interest in getting a group like Hamas into power in the West Bank?

    I have read about Netanyahu's seeming preference for Hamas over Fatah in Gaza but have not elsewhere heard any indication that they might "stick with" Hamas and seek to entrench them in the West Bank after having rooted them out of Gaza (if they do)



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    #19379
    Sir_Name
    Registered Users Posts: 824 ✭✭✭Sir_Name


    https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-raids-gazas-al-shifa-hospital-2023-11-15/

    Thoughts with the doctors, patients and civilians seeking refuge there



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    #19380
    sock.rocker*
    Registered Users Posts: 819 ✭✭✭sock.rocker*


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369990#Comment_121369990

    This is my own interpretation.



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    #19381
    Rezident
    Registered Users Posts: 1,793 ✭✭✭Rezident


    Israeli military has finally entered Gaza's al-Shifa hospital.

    Hamas gunmen may be hiding in hospital beds with guns under the sheets and 9,000 human shields - it is like something from a game of Call of Duty now. Absolutely nuts.



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