Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Has Palestine a right to self-defence?

They can't attack a Hamas launching site and kill 100 Gazan civilians in the process. That's when they are straight into the area of illegality and war crimes.

So Israel are still currently robbing land illegally in the West Bank and killing Palestinians.

And we are meant to be surprised and outraged when Hamas fight back??

This is the guy that was involved in the killing of the Swedish diplomat by the terrorist group Lehi. He went on to become Prime minister of Israel. Some of his supporters tried to paint the murder victim as an anti semite- despite him having saved Jewish people from the Nazis. Yitzhak never apologised, and some of the far right nationalists are glad he was killed.

These are the same type of people that are in government now in Israel. I see Gantz has called for Bibi to go. He probably wants to keep the war going as long as possible just so he can stay in power.

RTE

France calls West Bank Israeli settler violence 'policy of terror'

France has condemned violence by Israeli settlers in the West Bank, calling it a "policy of terror" aimed at displacing Palestinians and urging Israeli authorities to protect Palestinians from the violence.

That is not clear. If the Gazan civilians have been placed in the danger zone by Hamas recklessly locating the launching site at a hospital or school, then it is Hamas who are committing the war crime.

You don't get a free pass to lob rockets at your enemies by putting your rocket launchers in school playgrounds and hospital car parks.

Your first paragraph is irrelevant. If Israel decides to attack a piece of weaponry knowing full well it will probably kill 100 Gazan civilians in the process, they are committing a war crime. They can't use the 'it's all the other guys fault' excuse.

Launch sites sure. Occupy Moscow and tell millions of people they have to move to China no.

It is not irrelevant, it is precisely the issue to be considered under international law. And Israel can use the "it's all the other guy's fault" excuse in international law. If Israel has previously warned civilians to move away (it has) and if Israel attacks when there are less numbers of civilians, then Israel is acting in accordance with international law, and it is Hamas who have committed a war crime against their own people by putting them in harm's way. Civilians die in wars, that is the terrible and horrific reality.

As I said already, you don't get a free pass to lob rockets at your enemies by putting your rocket launchers in school playgrounds and hospital car parks. If you do that, you are committing a war crime against your own people, as Hamas appear to have been doing.

Just imagine the horrific nature of the cynicism. You put your rocket launchers into school playgrounds and hospital car parks, and you endanger your own citizens. You are betting on one of two outcomes, the Israelis don't bomb your rocket launchers and you are free to keep killing Israeli civilians as Hamas have been doing continuously with their rocket launchers, or alternatively, the Israelis bomb your rocket launchers and your own civilians die, but you win the propaganda war through your patsies in the West like SF/PBP condemning Israel. Either way, your only target is civilians, 50% chance of them being your own. That is the nature of Hamas, no consideration for anyone, not even their own people.

How 'hard' would the hammer have come down?

Levelling all of West Belfast killing 15,000 people? Don't be ridiculous.

There was no chance of that happening.

Address what I post, not what you imagine I post. Where did I mention refugee camps in my post?

Of course. But even Putin does not want as many home civilian casualties as Hamas does. It would make Putin look weak but with Hamas, sacrificing Palestinian lives is all part of their plan just for some more anti-Semitic PR.

Putin is bad but Hamas are even worse. Putin does not hide in hospitals behind babies.

Nonsense.

"A small group of countries"? The EU? It is a lie that people don't want an end to fighting.

From the EU statement on 12th November

"In line with the European Council conclusions of 26 October, the EU re-emphasizes Israel’s right to defend itself in line with international law and international humanitarian law."

"The EU joins calls for immediate pauses in hostilities and the establishment of humanitarian corridors, including through increased capacity at border crossings and through a dedicated maritime route, so that humanitarian aid can safely reach the population of Gaza."

"The EU reiterates its call on Hamas for the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages."

"The EU condemns the use of hospitals and civilians as human shields by Hamas."

That is the reasonable worldview, which I agree with. The hysterics on display elsewhere including by some of our own politicians who should know better are only for populist display.

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023/11/12/statement-by-the-high-representative-on-behalf-of-the-european-union-on-humanitarian-pauses-in-gaza/

I didn't say that. I gave an example of a legitimate military target - a rocket launcher. I did not say anywhere that it was the only possible legitimate military target.

Why do you repeatedly make up stuff?

Where in my post did I say that would have happened? It's not a direct comparison and the overall conflicts cannot be directly compared as they don't have much in common despite the repeated claim.

I was simply replying to the person who said "we're supposed to be shocked and outraged" that Hamas fought back.

There's a clear difference between any insurgency fighting occupation forces, and a terrorist organisation that specifically seeks to kill as many civilians as possible. And there a clear difference in domestic/international perception to both.

Perception is important in conflict. Look at Ukraine. Israel is fast losing any trace of positive perception in a general sense, and Hamas has very little internationally after Oct 7th.