Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

US Middle East coordinator puts conditions on the aid coming in. Another collective punishment war crime to the list.

Again, context. I said the exact same thing in my previous post but you chose to ignore it.

+1

Anyone believing propaganda from either side are merely showing their bias, whether they understand they are doing it or not

~perhaps if they stopped colonising outside their borders things would go more smoothely for them.

Israel has had Gaza under blockade since before Hamas came to power. Certain relatively well known Irish people were involved in a flotilla to try to break it back over 10 years ago

Care to regale us of your own combat experience? Bit of a schmozzle at the chipvan in the town square after the nightclub closed when you were 18? I asked @jmreire because he knows what he is talking about. No need for other posters to get their knickers in a twist

Hamas would have known the potential consequences of its massacre of Israelis on October 7th. The incursion into Israel humiliated Netanyahu who prides himself on being a strong man who can protect his people. It gave a green light to the extremists in Netanyahu's government to go in hard against Hamas though in reality the Palestinian people in general in Gaza.

Israel facilitated the coming into being of Hamas as a counter to the PLO. The ideal outcome for Israel was a Palestinian civil war. Which hasn't happened. Gaza has been an open air prison for decades. It is a form of concentration camp due to the restrictions imposed by Israel on Gaza. The people in power in Israel for decades have viewed Palestinians as the Nazi's viewed Jews.

It is distressing that this is so. Even more ridiculous when you consider that it is the Palestinians who were shafted from their land to create the state of Israel. I think the narrative is slowly changing whereby criticism of Israel can no longer be easily dismissed as Anti Semitism. Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. Biden could stop it but chooses not too. Making him complicit in war crimes.

The people of Palestine are entitled to a state of their own and the right to govern their assigned territory with free will free from Israeli interference in exchange for Israel being allowed to exist in peace. The only tenable solution is a two state one. Israel must be made to dismantle all settlements on what is seen today as legally Palestinian territory

The Israelis are showing a distressing level of cruelty and inhumanity to their fellow man. Considering the holocaust you would think they would be better than this.

My take on the whole situation is based on what I see happening, and the conditions it is happening under, and it is just my personal opinion. So, if anyone is looking for proofs etc, sorry. Best look elsewhere.

Re the Tunnels: - Up to the present (and pre-7th Nov) some 20'000 missiles had hit Israel, the majority of these missiles were fired after Israel left Gaza in 2005. Then in the early hours of 7th Nov, Hamas again began launching missiles into Israel, and on that day some 3'000 missiles were fired. Since then, a further 7'000 missiles have been launched.

So now just to focus on the above paragraph. Since Nov 7th, alone 10'000 missiles have been used by Hamas, and are still being used, even at a reduced rate as the IDF take more control. Obviously, Hamas were well prepared for the attack on Israel, and still have thousands of missiles left. (Just how many exactly is the question) So for sure they have been using and expanding these tunnels since 2005. How else would they have been able to acquire and store all these missiles (and many other things too) undetected, only for the tunnels? The sheer logistics are staggering. Hamas are still active in them and will continue to use them until the IDF manages to flush them out and destroy the tunnels themselves. In as much as it will be possible to destroy them or to put them beyond use by Hamas. And this will take time, lots of time. And I'm pretty sure that plenty of evidence will be uncovered proving Hamas's occupation of the tunnels. You simply cannot occupy a place for years on end, and not leave evidence of your stay. ( of course, Israel will have a very difficult time now persuading anyone that this time, they are telling the truth) The way a lot of posters are taking the view that all Israel is claiming is just lies, and that there never was a command post under the hospital etc. are not taking into account the fact that the number of Tunnels so far investigated is miniscule, a tiny fraction of the total. The point you make about Azovstal is very valid in the context of the Gaza tunnels. Look at how long it took the Russians take it? And the human and other costs? And had the Ukrainians managed to get better logistical support in terms of weapons, food and medicine, it would have taken the Russians a lot longer to take it. For Hamas, food, medicine and safe shelter will not be a problem thanks to the tunnels.

Your comment re the tunnels being the justification for the deaths of so many Palestinians, for the Israeli's it lies in the fact of just how much of a threat these tunnels pose to them. And according to their logic, if there are going to be deaths, better them than us.

I posted the survey that was countered and I disagreed with said counter? Where? Because I did not. Unless you mean the person who posted "evidence" that the survey was wrong and it was just a link to an article about a protest.

Because that proves nothing except that not everyone in Gaza supports Hamas. I certainly never claimed otherwise, and no survey supports that view, and frankly not even the most corrupt, despotic states even pretend to try claim that the entire population supports them, eg Putin's Russia.

I also certainly did not reference "the entirety" of Gaza?

I assume you're refering to the survey that said there was 60 percent strong support for Hamas and then the other survey, from a much smaller poll, said there was 30 percent strong support for Hamas.

I had no problem whatsoever with the other survey and said as much. I certainly didn't deny it, discredit it, or claim it to be wrong, so honestly I don't get where the argument is that I disagreed with it comes from.

So even if we assumed that both polls are accurate, even when one is much smaller, and meet in the middle, that equates to not far off 45-50 percent strong support. Let's say it is 40.

In what world is that percentage of strong support weak? I would say if you polled the population in many EU countries you wouldn't even reach those levels of "strong" support for the sitting Government.

And let's also address the fact that polls show completley dismal support for the PA in both Gaza and Palestine.

It discredits those who go to lengths to act like the Palestinian population is completely seperate from Hamas. It discredits the notion that Palestinians do not support Hamas.

No-one is claiming that every Palestinian man, woman, child and animal supports Hamas. But the fact is a very significant chunk of the population does. I'm not passing judgement; I can certainly see why. But a fact is a fact.

That doesn't mean what's happening is fine or that anyone deserves anything that's happening. But it is a fact that needs to be discussed and not ignored because it does not fit a certain narrative.

You've also said that understanding where and how Hamas came from is not pro-Hamas. Can you point out where I said it did? Because I expressly did not and I completely agree with that exact sentiment.

I said the polar opposite, that understanding something is in no way, shape or form endorsing something.

I specifically referenced those - and they are a select few - who take the vaguest rumor about Israel actions to be gospel, while actively downplaying everything that paints Hamas in a negative light.

People are right to challenge narratives. I don't for a second believe the IDF to be credible. I've never said otherwise. And not believing someone, or something, to not be credible doesn't mean that they aren't truthful or right, it just means that you don't automatically believe what's being said and demand a higher burden of proof.

Which is completely fine. Except some posters here are taking rumour, speculation, etc that shows Israel in a bad light instantly as pure gospel, yet when anything similar about Hamas crops up, it's dismissed as just that - rumor, unproven, unverified, propaganda, etc.

We completely and fundementally agree that discussing facts, understanding facts, actions and respective viewpoints of either Hamas or IDF is simply just that and not a siding or endorsement of either.

I have zero information of the methodology.

As I said previous, I'm sure polling people in the likes of Gaza is incredibly difficult, as it would be in other places like Russia, but people do it regardless.

How accurate the information is, of course we can't say it's irrefutably so for various reasons but it is a good indication and generally, they both align with more informal internal polls that show degrees of relatively strong support for Hamas in Palestine (West Bank and Gaza).

By relatively strong I mean in the widely understood sense, eg 30-50%, I am not sure why some people think a political poll should be way higher. If you polled an EU country right now I doubt you'd get 50% strong support for a sitting Government.

Both also show opposition to Hamas but again that is to be expected. I don't think anyone has ever claimed that Hamas enjoys universal support. Even the most wildly popular Governments don't have anything close to that in any country.

It's more about gauging support for Hamas which seems relatively strong and challenging the narrative by some that Palestinians are completely seperate from governing Hamas.

The later and bigger poll also directly asked about the Oct 7th attack and there was very strong support. Is it 100% reliable? Polls never are even under the most free of conditions. But they are a good indicator.

I think the latest polls in Russia show support for the war at around 70% for example. That means some 30 odd million Russians are either indifferent, uncertain, or plain against the war, and no-one would deny that, but it can't be avoided that the fact remains that the majority support it.

As to who, the bigger poll is an arab think-tank which I believe is based in Palestine. The smaller poll referenced you'd have to check.

While I accept the poll can't be taken as pure gospel, I don't think they would be falsified as the larger one comes from a genuinely credible source.

Finally, I can understand completely why Palestinians would support Hamas. I'm not judging anyone, nor suggesting they deserve anything that's happening because they do. I am more interested in facts and reality and how said facts relate to the conflict.

Israel to possibly bring in new death penalty law.

How many suicide bombs and rockets have they sent in their direction?

You're suggesting that terrorist violence is justified because of illegal Israeli settlements in the West bank.

There's always going to be 'they did this, but the others did that' neither justifies the others actions, but it does make them understandable