Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

I posted the survey that was countered and I disagreed with said counter? Where? Because I did not. Unless you mean the person who posted "evidence" that the survey was wrong and it was just a link to an article about a protest.

Because that proves nothing except that not everyone in Gaza supports Hamas. I certainly never claimed otherwise, and no survey supports that view, and frankly not even the most corrupt, despotic states even pretend to try claim that the entire population supports them, eg Putin's Russia.

I also certainly did not reference "the entirety" of Gaza?

I assume you're refering to the survey that said there was 60 percent strong support for Hamas and then the other survey, from a much smaller poll, said there was 30 percent strong support for Hamas.

I had no problem whatsoever with the other survey and said as much. I certainly didn't deny it, discredit it, or claim it to be wrong, so honestly I don't get where the argument is that I disagreed with it comes from.

So even if we assumed that both polls are accurate, even when one is much smaller, and meet in the middle, that equates to not far off 45-50 percent strong support. Let's say it is 40.

In what world is that percentage of strong support weak? I would say if you polled the population in many EU countries you wouldn't even reach those levels of "strong" support for the sitting Government.

And let's also address the fact that polls show completley dismal support for the PA in both Gaza and Palestine.

It discredits those who go to lengths to act like the Palestinian population is completely seperate from Hamas. It discredits the notion that Palestinians do not support Hamas.

No-one is claiming that every Palestinian man, woman, child and animal supports Hamas. But the fact is a very significant chunk of the population does. I'm not passing judgement; I can certainly see why. But a fact is a fact.

That doesn't mean what's happening is fine or that anyone deserves anything that's happening. But it is a fact that needs to be discussed and not ignored because it does not fit a certain narrative.

You've also said that understanding where and how Hamas came from is not pro-Hamas. Can you point out where I said it did? Because I expressly did not and I completely agree with that exact sentiment.

I said the polar opposite, that understanding something is in no way, shape or form endorsing something.

I specifically referenced those - and they are a select few - who take the vaguest rumor about Israel actions to be gospel, while actively downplaying everything that paints Hamas in a negative light.

People are right to challenge narratives. I don't for a second believe the IDF to be credible. I've never said otherwise. And not believing someone, or something, to not be credible doesn't mean that they aren't truthful or right, it just means that you don't automatically believe what's being said and demand a higher burden of proof.

Which is completely fine. Except some posters here are taking rumour, speculation, etc that shows Israel in a bad light instantly as pure gospel, yet when anything similar about Hamas crops up, it's dismissed as just that - rumor, unproven, unverified, propaganda, etc.

We completely and fundementally agree that discussing facts, understanding facts, actions and respective viewpoints of either Hamas or IDF is simply just that and not a siding or endorsement of either.

I have zero information of the methodology.

As I said previous, I'm sure polling people in the likes of Gaza is incredibly difficult, as it would be in other places like Russia, but people do it regardless.

How accurate the information is, of course we can't say it's irrefutably so for various reasons but it is a good indication and generally, they both align with more informal internal polls that show degrees of relatively strong support for Hamas in Palestine (West Bank and Gaza).

By relatively strong I mean in the widely understood sense, eg 30-50%, I am not sure why some people think a political poll should be way higher. If you polled an EU country right now I doubt you'd get 50% strong support for a sitting Government.

Both also show opposition to Hamas but again that is to be expected. I don't think anyone has ever claimed that Hamas enjoys universal support. Even the most wildly popular Governments don't have anything close to that in any country.

It's more about gauging support for Hamas which seems relatively strong and challenging the narrative by some that Palestinians are completely seperate from governing Hamas.

The later and bigger poll also directly asked about the Oct 7th attack and there was very strong support. Is it 100% reliable? Polls never are even under the most free of conditions. But they are a good indicator.

I think the latest polls in Russia show support for the war at around 70% for example. That means some 30 odd million Russians are either indifferent, uncertain, or plain against the war, and no-one would deny that, but it can't be avoided that the fact remains that the majority support it.

As to who, the bigger poll is an arab think-tank which I believe is based in Palestine. The smaller poll referenced you'd have to check.

While I accept the poll can't be taken as pure gospel, I don't think they would be falsified as the larger one comes from a genuinely credible source.

Finally, I can understand completely why Palestinians would support Hamas. I'm not judging anyone, nor suggesting they deserve anything that's happening because they do. I am more interested in facts and reality and how said facts relate to the conflict.

Israel to possibly bring in new death penalty law.

How many suicide bombs and rockets have they sent in their direction?

You're suggesting that terrorist violence is justified because of illegal Israeli settlements in the West bank.

There's always going to be 'they did this, but the others did that' neither justifies the others actions, but it does make them understandable

Yesh Din, an Israeli rights group, reports that 197 Palestinians in the West Bank have been killed by settlers or Israeli forces since Oct. 7. The United Nations reports that, in the same time frame, at least 121 Palestinian households — about 1,150 people, including 452 children — have been displaced by settler violence and access restrictions.

Daily incidents of settler violence rose from three a day earlier this year to seven since the attacks, per the United Nations. About 11 Palestinian communities have been completely abandoned in 2023 alone, according to the West Bank Protection Consortium, six of them since Hamas’ assault.

It must be some craic to be Jewish, leave America, get cheap land in Palestine, get tax cuts, and murder Muslims in your free time with the support of your country and religion. Living the dream.

You do understand the right to armed resistance against an occupying force is enshrined in international law.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/north-africa-west-asia/right-to-resist-in-occupied-palestine-denial-and-suppression/

Which land are you referring to though? The lands taken after they were invaded by their neighbours in 1948/1967 ? Or the more recent illegal settlements

According to Israeli sources from over a month ago. 28 helicopters and jets were used on the 7th and "had tremendous difficulty in distinguishing within the occupied outposts and settlements who was a terrorist and who was a soldier or civilian"

Here's the relevant part of your original post -

''I also think perhaps you're mixed up, since Israel left Gaza in the good hands of Hamas, Israel have constantly been attacked by them and have had to defend themselves, as they have done since 1948.''

Israel is not the only side being attacked. The IDF and the settlers have been attacking for many years hence the Palestine lands have been dwindling and sometimes the only means of defence is attack. So if its ok for one side then its ok for the other. BUT as we know, the biggest bully usually wins.

A couple of minutes of Israeli footage from the day which was posted over a month ago. 28 helicopter and jets at it all morning inevitable a few Israeli's were caught up in it.

I'd say that its precisely because of the holocaust that they are like this...

When the dust settles on this and the eventual reckoning comes in Israel for the security lapses on Oct 7th, I wouldn't be surprised if half the civilian casulties on the day came from IDF fire. The IDF operate with practically zero oversight or accountablilty so it's not surprising they were so reckless and gungho.

Is this the sentence you are talking about?

"As I mentioned in an earlier post, there are a lot of surprises waiting in these tunnels, and it will take some time to check and clear them all, and some will never be reached, the ones that are 2-300 feet deep."

If this is not the sentence, then show where I mentioned 3'000 feet.

And you need to follow your own advice, what is meant by GLUE SHIFFING? Was that what you were doing when you wrote your post? Or do you mean SNIFFING?

Also, it's not actually an excuse used by child abusers. Many child abusers were themselves abused as children, they don't use it as an excuse.

Thanks jmreire

I suppose that from a purely neutral perspective, for someone like me, the idea of having tunnels for self-defence purposes is a logical one. I would think that if I was in charge of something in Gaza and had a belligerent neighbour who had the habit of routinely assassinating people in positions of authority, and blowing up infrastructure and assets, I'd be recommending and encouraging the construction of tunnels too.

I wouldn't see a huge difference between Israel saying "Gaza can't have tunnels" and Russia (pre-invasion) saying "Kyiv can't have an air defence system".

And yes, Hamas do fire rockets into Israel. But perhaps Israel should have taken a step back long ago and considered why that is the situation. Israel have always held most of the power in that relationship.