Unsolved Irish Mysteries.

Deregos. · 19-10-2023 12:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120606612#Comment_120606612

That 'claim' that Imelda Keenan was suffering with depression happens to come from only one person, her boyfriend who is also the last person to see her before she disappeared.

miamee · 19-10-2023 9:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121257198#Comment_121257198

There are multiple mentions of intoxicants and toxicology reports in that article, I'd imagine there was an inkling that these were behind the death but too early to say at the time before official test results. The fact there have been no further news reports might support that. All conjecture on my part of course. There seems to have been nothing in the news after 2nd November 2022 about this.

JeffreyEpspeen · 20-10-2023 8:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261417#Comment_121261417

Bake him away, toys.

Caquas · 21-10-2023 3:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121252364#Comment_121252364

There is a podcast episode devoted to Bertie Tyrer.

https://link.goloudplayer.com/s/pGhEW8aSKoam

Seems incredible that he could know nothing of this terrible murder until he found the body at the bottom of the stairs.

He was interviewed at length on the day after the murder but he was regarded only as "a person of interest". Very unclear why the Gardai did not treat him as a suspect. Probably because they focussed on the young man who came home with Charles in a taxi that night. We are told that none of his design colleagues in RTÉ thought Bertie could have been the murderer or was withholding evidence, but that would be enormously traumatic for any group to accept.

Alan Bailey, the Garda who lead a cold case review, is critical of the original investigation but for reasons completely different to the Misneach documentary. Most importantly, he says the crime scene was staged e.g. chairs had been placed back over blood stained areas. He also doesn't believe the original theory that the killer left the house through a kitchen window. He says the window is only 2 feet wide and difficult to access. A heavy plant box had been moved outside under the window, making it seem easier to get down from that window, and a neighbour heard that movement around 4 am. that morning.

In any event, the killer could have simply got out the front door, as Bertie did, despite the body in the hallway. Bailey says the front door was "shut" when Bertie was going out that morning but if the door was locked on the inside, it would mean that the killer either got out the kitchen window or was still in the house.😱

All this makes Bailey believe the killer staged the scene to look like a burglary gone wrong.

The original investigation found an unidentified fingerprint on a drainpipe outside the kitchen and assumed this was the killer's, but Bailey says it has now been identified as belonging to someone with an entirely convincing explanation. If all the fingerprints at the crime scene were accounted for, then Bertie must be a suspect.

Bailey is clearly sceptical about Bertie's version of events but Bertie had died in the mid-1990s, before the cold case review. If Bertie was sleeping so deeply that he heard nothing of the murderous rampage downstairs in a small house, how does that gel with his claim that he was awakened twice that night, firstly around 2 pm by the sound of ordinary conversation downstairs and secondly, some time later, by a stranger who, he says, just opened the door to his bedroom and said "Sorry, wrong room"?

Some of those questioned by the Gardai raised issues about Bertie. He was called a "nasty drunk" who treated the house, and its drink cabinet, as his own. He may even have had some sort of "hold" over Charles. He had a "violent row" with Charles on the night before the murder, possibly because Bertie had brought home a stranger he met on the street (if so, imagine Bertie's reaction when Charles did the same thing the following night 😤).

Does anyone know why Bertie Tyrer came to Ireland? The podcast says he had retired from the BBC and was living in a cottage in Avoca before he was "enticed back to work" by RTÉ. Did he have personal connections to Ireland?

The key to this murder is the young man in the taxi. Is it possible that he might still come forward? The stigma around homosexuality would have deterred him from giving evidence in 1982 even if he had a convincing explanation for his role that night. For example, did he leave the house as soon as a row broke out between Bertie and Charles over bringing strangers home? Perhaps he will find the courage to resolve a mystery which still haunts the gay community.

NewbridgeIR · 21-10-2023 6:16pm

Great post @Caquas

Bertie Tyrer was born in 1915 so considerably older than Charles Self. How does he fit in to the scene? He looks uptight & stilted in photos.

There are claims of deafness but I wonder if he had a hearing aid.

Caquas · 22-10-2023 12:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121252288#Comment_121252288

Neither of the two recent books on Macarthur say he was gay or in any way connected to the gay scene but, according to Una Mullally in the IT,

Macarthur was known on the gay scene in Dublin, and also to Self. Some friends can’t shake what they say is a similarity between the description of the person Tyrer drew and Macarthur’s likeness.

In October, Macarthur spoke to a tabloid newspaper. While he did admit that he was a regular drinker in Bartley Dunne’s, he claimed he had stopped socialising there around the time Self was killed.

Bill Maher says he was told Charles Self’s killer was in prison. “A reporter told me he was behind bars,” he says. “[The reporter] said he was quoting a Garda source.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/murder-in-monkstown-the-brutal-killing-of-charles-self-1.3126696

The Misneach documentary highlighted a campaign to get access to the Garda interview files. I would like to know if they interviewed MacArthur about this murder, either before or after his two known murders.

Caquas · 22-10-2023 9:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121267951#Comment_121267951

If he had a hearing aid at that time, that would surely have been mentioned by way of explaining how he could be unaware of the carnage downstairs. A friend and colleague said "He was somewhat hard of hearing" but this was not a problem anyone seemed to notice before the murder.

There are mixed messages in the podcast on his relations with Charles Self but it seems clear that they had had a row on the night before the murder. We are told that theirs was simply a work relationship (i.e. in RTÉ's design department) and that Charles was just being kind to a colleague who couldn't get home to Wicklow because of the snow storm that January. But it seems Bertie stayed frequently in the house and some say he "treated it like his own" although there is no implication that Charles and Bertie were a couple. Some witnesses made very negative comments about Bertie to the Gardai. These were not off-hand remarks, these were statements to a murder investigation by people who knew Bertie and knew that he had been in the house on the night of the murder. But then a friend and colleague of Bertie's agreed with the interviewer's suggestion that Bertie and Charles were "very friendly".

My guess is that the Gardai realised they couldn't pin the murder on anyone unless they found the young man in the taxi. They knew the young man, even if innocent of the murder, would be reluctant to come forward voluntarily because of the stigma that attached to gay men at that time. So they went on a trawl through the gay community which was entirely counter-productive. No one identified the young man with floppy blond hair and the gay community united against Garda harassment. The Misneach documentary focusses on the Garda investigation and we learn nothing about this young man and nothing new about the murder.

I would be interested in reactions to this possible scenario which is pure speculation but I think it could fit the facts in this podcast. This scenario fits with the belief of Alan Bailey, the cold case detective, that the scene had been staged to look like a robbery.

Bertie has worn out his welcome with Charles because he is treating the house, and its drinks cabinet, like his own. Tensions rise when Charles decides to bring in a female tenant to occupy the bedroom Bertie has been using. Things come to a head on the night of 19 January when Bertie brings home a stranger he met on the street. Charles regards this as a terrible abuse of his hospitality, especially because he was robbed the last time he himself had brought home a stranger. They have a blazing row but the next day (20 Jan) Charles gets good news at work (new projects and a pay rise!) so he goes on the town to celebrate. He ends a long evening on Eden Quay where he picks up a young man and they arrive home by taxi at 12.40 am.

Charles is unpleasantly surprised to find Bertie in the house despite their row the previous night and although the recent spell of cold weather was over so Bertie could have gone home to Avoca that day (contrary to subsequent media reports and the podcast version). To make matters worse, Bertie has been at the drinks cabinet again while watching TV all evening. Bertie did not answer the phone when it rang a number of times around midnight because he (wrongly) assumed it was Charles checking if the coast was clear. So Bertie was primed for another row before Charles gets home and Bertie is more incensed when Charles arrives with a stranger - the very thing Charles had berated Bertie for the previous night. Charles is outraged that Bertie would make this comparison and says he will bring home whomsoever he pleases but that Bertie, as a house guest, does not have that privilege. The young man makes a hasty exit at this stage, not wishing to become embroiled in this domestic fight.

Charles demands that Bertie hand over his key to the house, tantamount to cutting Bertie off from the house he regarded as his base in Dublin. A physical struggle ensues, both men are drunk and Bertie's anger boils over. He grabs a kitchen knife and chases Charles around the living room and hallway, ultimately stabbing Charles 14 times with extraordinary force in a drunken rage.

Bertie realises the horror of what he has done and considers his options. As so many others have done in domestic murder cases, he decides to make it look like a robbery gone wrong (e.g. Eamon Lillis and Joe O'Reilly years later). It wouldn't be difficult to convince homophobic police that Charles had brought home a stranger for a gay sex session which had turned into an attempted robbery that escalated into his extremely violent murder. Bertie could say quite simply that he had been sound asleep in bed and knew nothing until he found the body but, to show that Charles was not alone, he decided to say he had heard voices around 2 am speaking in a normal tone downstairs.

But there was a problem - Bertie needed a backup in case the Gardai found the young man Charles had actually brought home. He could give damning evidence about the row Bertie had with Charles. This would be impossible to contradict - how could this stranger know so much about Bertie and his relations with Charles if Bertie had been asleep upstairs? So, if the young man told his story to the Gardai, Bertie would tearfully admit that he had a row with Charles that night but claim that it had ended peacefully shortly after the young man left. Bertie would say he had then gone to bed leaving Charles downstairs. He would insist that everything in his original story was true except for this omission which had nothing to do with the murder and which he did not include in his statement because he bitterly regretted that his last words with Charles were spoken in anger and he feared the Gardai might wrongly suspect him of the murder.

But this would undermine the "robbery gone wrong" scenario unless Bertie can credibly say that there was another visitor that night, after the young man left and Bertie had gone to bed. So Bertie had to include in his original statement a description of a man who was clearly not the young man that fled from the house when the row began. But how can Bertie have seen this second man if he was in bed asleep? Well, Bertie will say in his statement that this (fictitious) man had briefly come to his bedroom and Bertie would use his graphic skill to give the Gardai a remarkably clear sketch - not of the blond, floppy-haired Dubliner (who might turn up) but of his polar opposite - a dark, curly-haired man with a west-Brit accent. So even if the young man was found and told his damning tale of Bertie's row with Charles, Bertie could stick to the essence of his story.

All he needed to do before the Gardai arrived was to make the house fit his failed robbery scenario (i.e. the gay sex turned into a robbery and then a bloody murder). He ransacked the place as if the murderer was looking for valuables. He tied a cord from Vincent Hanley's dressing gown around a chair and Charles's neck (like it was used as a ligature during sex). But how did the murderer escape if he didn't have house keys? Bertie dragged a planter towards a tiny kitchen window at 4 am to make the cops think the murder had escaped that way because Charles's lifeless body was blocking the door. In the morning he tried to call the ambulance but he couldn't get a dial tone because Charles hadn't paid the phone bill (did Bertie owe him for phone calls, which were costly in 1982?) . So Bertie had to get out the front door to call help, proving that the murderer did not need to get out that tiny kitchen window. That afternoon he turned up for work, seemingly not traumatised by the horror he had witnessed that morning but busily playing the amateur detective, trying to piece together the crime (or was he trying to guess what the Gardai would think and if his scheme was water-tight?).

I might be barking up the wrong tree entirely and Bertie Tyrer may have slept the deepest sleep of the innocent while downstairs was bloody murder.

In any case, he was never going to be charged with murder unless the young man turned up and proved that Charles was alive when he left the house. Even then, a jury might have a reasonable doubt about the dark, curly-haired man with a West Brit accent, especially if they thought Bertie might have seen Malcolm Macarthur on that dark January night.

22-10-2023 9:27pm

Re McArthur case a (heterosexual) then colleague of mine was called as a witness and after explained why he was questioned. Being an accomplished amateur musician and with a lot of connections on the Dublin social scene, he had very many gay friends, and McArthur was very much known to hang around the gay circles.

22-10-2023 9:32pm

My late mother, a talented artist, was a friend of Alpho O’Reilly, both hung around the arts circles. Alpho was also a friend of my mother’s then boyfriend, another in the arts circles, and seemed to be maybe jealous of her relationship with him, so much so he gave her warnings to cut the relationship dead. She said it could be quite a murky but fascinating world.

Caquas · 23-10-2023 4:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121272324#Comment_121272324

I suspect foul play but we are completely in the dark. He never married and there is no mention of a partner of any sort.

You would imagine that the disappearance of a former senior executive with our national broadcaster, their chief designer for decades, would attract major media attention. But it barely registers 🤨. When was the last time RTÉ made an appeal about their former colleague? There is every likelihood that someone who knows something about his disappearance has not yet come forward simply because they don't know he disappeared. Someone e.g. might have seen him or his car after its last know sighting at the filling station in Ashford.

He was reportedly behaving oddly when he was last seen and he may have suffered from amnesia. But that doesn't explain his disappearance. I don't believe for a moment that he chose to abandon his comfortable home in Dublin and his generous pension in order to live somewhere incognito for all these years. Nor do I think it could be a case of suicide. It is possible that a body could disappear completely e.g. get washed out to sea, but what about his car - it was brand-new Mitsubishi with a distinctive green colour. Somebody went to great lengths to get rid of this. A paint job wouldn't do - what about the registration documents etc.?

28 years ago next January. Still possible that someone could come forward or there could be some other break in the case. Think of poor Tina Satchwell.

GavPJ · 24-10-2023 10:59am

I'm reading Jimmy Guerin's book Justice Denied at the minute. The Grace Livingstone case is in it.

Throws new light on the case and the mess the Gardai made of the investigation.

Caquas · 24-10-2023 7:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121277527#Comment_121277527

A terrible murder and a total fiasco of an investigation.

There was no evidence against the husband and he was miles away at work at 4.30pm when four witnesses in different locations nearby reported hearing a loud bang, like a shotgun blast.

The Gardai seemed obsessed with the idea that he had gone home to Malahide at lunchtime, murdered his wife and got back to the office in the city centre, all without anyone noticing a thing. So they did what cops everywhere will do when they have no evidence - they tried to force a confession out of the husband. He sued and got a settlement. A unique case because he was never actually charged with anything except for not having a gun licence. Of course, no consequences for the Gardai involved.

On the other hand, Rachel O'Reilly RIP.

orourkeda1 · 24-10-2023 8:13pm

Where's Ryan Tubridy?

Hangdogroad · 24-10-2023 8:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121279632#Comment_121279632

I think everyone is in agreement at this stage that he wasn't present during her murder. The question is who actually carried it out and why. I dont think it was some random psycho.

Caquas · 26-10-2023 4:12pm

Here's a truly horrific murder which remains unsolved but has faded from public memory over the past 5 years.

A man is butchered in front of his wife after a gang wielding slash hooks and other weapons burst into his home in the middle of the night. Let's hope there is a break-through in this investigation.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-41256085.html

reclose · 26-10-2023 11:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287018#Comment_121287018

First time hearing about this. Very violent murder for something unrelated to criminality.

Caquas · 28-10-2023 6:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121288794#Comment_121288794

It seems he was not involved in criminality but, of course, his assailants very much were.

Fingers crossed the DPP will be able to bring charges soon. There have been many violent break-ins at houses in rural areas but this attack was another level of brutality.

FrankN1 · 28-10-2023 7:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121294971#Comment_121294971

Has to be more to this story.

Caquas · 31-10-2023 9:05am

Is this an unsolved Irish mystery?

After years of courtroom drama in the most high-profile murder of an Irish citizen in America, Molly Martens says she feared Jason Corbett murdered his first wife.

https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2023/10/30/molly-martens-feared-jason-corbett-killed-first-wife-and-could-kill-her-counsel-tells-us-court/

Mr Kingsberry said in his opening statement there would be evidence that his client had confided to multiple witnesses about her growing concerns about the death of her husband’s first wife, Margaret, in 2006.

He said there would be evidence that Mr Corbett’s first wife had not died from an asthma attack.He suggested there was a possibility that there had been a homicide from strangulation.

Mr Corbett’s family have maintained in the years since his death that Ms Martens and her father had not only killed him but also sought to blacken his name.

Of course, she makes this claim to help her sentencing. If she convinces the court that she had a genuine fear, it would mitigate her own guilt.

Was there an inquest here into the death in 2006? If not, this allegation will just hang out there.

Main thread on this case is here

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121302216#Comment_121302216

mrsdewinter · 31-10-2023 2:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121304061#Comment_121304061

This is the first I've heard of this claim. Mags Corbett died how many years ago?

Hangdogroad · 31-10-2023 9:06pm

Typicall b0ll0cks claim by the Martens.

JeffreyEpspeen · 31-10-2023 9:10pm

Watching the doc about Paddy Moriarty's disappearance on Netflix. Very strange stuff.

DangerMouse27 · 31-10-2023 9:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019119#Comment_121019119

Who is leaving the family in limbo?

Hangdogroad · 31-10-2023 9:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121307688#Comment_121307688

Presume op means the killer.

DangerMouse27 · 31-10-2023 10:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121307828#Comment_121307828

Yeah. I'd imagine so.

It's the most known of unknowns though.

The Gardai know, people know. But proving something. Well that's a whole different kettle of fish.

Caquas · 05-11-2023 11:55am

Today's Sun has a (pixelated) CCTV image from the post office in Newbridge where Deirdre Jacob went just before she disappeared. Gardai say the CCTV image bears a "striking resemblance" to Larry Murphy but not close enough to get a formal identification.

It would be very convenient for the Gardai to pin every case of a "missing" woman on Larry Murphy but there is strong evidence placing him in Newbridge on that day and this CCTV suggests Deirdre Jacob had the misfortune to cross his path.

Sultan of Bling · 05-11-2023 12:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121327270#Comment_121327270

Even if they proved the image was his, without a body it would be very difficult to pin anything on him.

K-9 · 05-11-2023 8:22pm

AFAIK in a few of those missing girls cases in the Leinster triangle, the Guards have basically said they know who it was, as in somebody close to the girls.

Maybe 1 or 2 were linked to Murphy.

oneilla · 13-11-2023 4:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120935252#Comment_120935252

Thomas ‘Tosh’ Lavery of the Garda dive team was quoted in Rosita Boland's excellent 3-part article in the Irish Times saying that searching the canal is like searching a swimming pool.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/the-disappearance-of-trevor-deely-part-2-the-search-1.2119911

Trevor had already crossed the canal in the last video footage from the ATM camera at the corner of Baggot St bridge and Haddington Rd (where Milanos is now).

Caquas · 19-11-2023 12:50pm

Two men are serving life sentences for the murder of Irene White at her home in Dundalk in 2005 but the case remains a mystery. Both men say they murdered her at the behest of a third man who has never been charged. The Gardai sent a file to the DPP recommending that a murder charge be brought against the Third Man but the DPP has now decided not to pursue charges.

The family say they will take a civil case but I don't recall anyone succeeding in a civil case here when the DPP refused to prosecute. Even if the family win that case, all they will get is monetary compensation (which they may never collect) and the satisfaction of proving his responsibility in open court.

https://www.sundayworld.com/crime/irish-crime/suspected-mastermind-behind-irene-whites-murder-escapes-charges/a1880705035.html

Unsolved Irish Mysteries.

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