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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,299 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Are you a member? doesn't sound like it. In my humble opinion it is always best not to comment about something you have no knowledge of

    Maybe you should explain what you think a "greens" is, maybe I am, maybe I am not.

    Smart meter at the moment can push data every 30 mins to supplier. Maybe it is easier if you can explain why they can't update in more regular intervals?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,723 ✭✭✭creedp


    Are you saying this rype of variable charging model is a necessary evil with renewables or do you get your rocks off thinking about the working families who wont be able to afford to cook their dinners after a hard day's work.

    This is the problem I have with a lot of uber green thinking, sock it to the ordinary guy and enjoy watching them eat cake. Extremely dislikable characteristic in that cohort imo



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,726 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy


    The thing most posters seem to be missing is that you absolutely won't get public support for nuclear reactors in Ireland. And the likelihood of the public ever supporting a highly complex, decades long project to build two to three reactors is low. Like we couldn't come in on budget or on time for the children's hospital....



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,723 ✭✭✭creedp


    Ah well I been reading about the human race boiling alive for some time now so I think its pretty benig tbh



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,299 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    What is a "uber green"? these statements keep getting fired out with no explanation of what they mean. So please could you explain?

    Also while you are at it so we are clear, who is the "ordinary guy"?

    Also is it possible the "uber green" could also be classified as a "ordinary guy"?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,299 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    I would expect bandwidth is a consideration as they are using a consumer network, roll out and see how much bandwidth they need and then ramp it up. Bandwidth is not cheap in Ireland so it will come down to commercials once rollout is complete.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,012 ✭✭✭Shoog


    I cook after 7pm because it's cheaper that way. I can choose to cook earlier but I know it will cost more. Having the massive advert brake peak of demand has always been a major issue for grids that requires special provision (think Turlough Hill).

    I have no issue with demand shaping.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,299 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    This is the point I have made and none of the pro nuclear people can answer. Nobody in Ireland will support it if the nuclear plant is beside them. Especially home owners who will have their expensive house suddenly become next to worthless overnight.

    It's not just the build cost, a nuclear reactor is one of the most complex systems in the World and as I pointed out already a huge target for hackers etc. The cost of the cyber security would be eye watering, it's not like we have a great record in Ireland at that either.

    It's just noise to be honest on all these threads. Pages and pages of noise of something that will never happen in our lifetime. Plus as I have mentioned, not one single party in Ireland is currently running based on nuclear. If the public actually wanted it one of them would have stood up and said it to get votes, but they won't because they know they will lose votes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,383 ✭✭✭prunudo


    And to add, the algorithms they use are dubious in how they further that echo chamber. Only showing you styles of posts or pages that you have engaged with in the past.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,012 ✭✭✭Shoog


    The data traffic would be absolutely tiny. Bandwidth would not be a major issue - coverage is the issue that would scupper it, some people cannot run smart meters because mobile coverage isn't universal.



  • Registered Users Posts: 843 ✭✭✭m2_browning


    That’s only the build cost (before recent increases in offshore costs), the operating costs are as large and whole thing needs to be repeated every 25 years

    in Meantime in UAE they built 4 reactors that can power this country for under 28 billion



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,012 ✭✭✭Shoog


    A wind turbine is mostly recyclable so no wasted resources there. The pads and cabling can be rolled over when the turbine is upgraded. Your concerns are overblown at best since each upgrade cycle will be cheaper than the initial build out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,607 ✭✭✭ps200306



    First thing to note that is that the piece is a paid advertisement and should thus be treated as the Green Party propaganda that it clearly is. Ryan extols the ORESS 1 auction as a "landmark", without asking whether any of it will be built, given that it took place before the revelations about huge inflation in wind power costs.

    The €100 billion figure is a suspiciously round number. I suspect we'll be doing well if it's accurate to one significant figure. It's not at all clear what it covers. Does it include all the hydrogen electrolysis and recombustion to fully decarbonise the grid? Does it cater for a doubling of electricity demand by 2050, or just current levels of demand? Assuming Ryan didn't just pluck the number from his ass, where are the details behind it?

    It doesn't look great, regardless. Divide Ryan's €100 billion by our current annual electricity consumption and divide again by the 27 years from now to 2050 ... it works out at €130/MWh. That's assuming an even spend each year, but if you are ramping up linearly from zero it implies double that price. On the other hand if you are catering for twice the current demand you get back down to €130. There's no possible way to know. Also, how much of the costs are recurrent? After 27 years you will be well into the next generation of replacement turbines for the early installations.

    So what else would €130/MWh buy us? Well, it's way more expensive than this:

    How does it compare to when "wind power was nine times cheaper than gas" (on a single day in August 2022). It's well over three times more expensive than it supposedly was back then. (Meanwhile, gas prices have fallen by a factor of eight).

    Bottom line: even if Ryan's figure was remotely in the ballpark it would be sending chills through the economy. But until I see the details behind his figures I don't remotely believe a headline figure from a puff piece that he paid for. He's a fanatic with a vested interest in overhyping the benefits while underestimating the costs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,299 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Yes small but when you have 1m+ devices on network which already has millions of devices running on it you can run into issues. I would hazard a guess once it is rolled out they can figure out what the actual overhead is and if they can change the times.

    The number of devices without coverage is small to be honest and I expect they could be left on standard rates if wanted.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,299 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    It's from a government department and not the Green Party. If you want to paint all government releases as "propaganda" so be it



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,607 ✭✭✭ps200306


    It's from Eamon Ryan, the leader of the Green Party. He refers to "my department" in the piece. The fact that it says "Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications" at the bottom just shows that he spent their money on it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,299 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    It's from a government department. Eamonn Ryan is the leader of that department so yes he would say "my department"

    Who's money did you expect them to spend?

    Maybe you can explain how you would like a government department to do press releases so the public are aware of whats going on? might be easier to get to the nub of the issue



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I hope you send those questions to the dept, would like to see more information on the figure myself



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,993 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    And who pays for all this extra capacity? The costs would be astronomical and will only be borne by the customer.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,559 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    No it isn't. The price in the day ahead market might trend towards zero, but the price paid for the electricity supplied (plus that constrained, curtailed or over supplied by wind/solar) is most definitely non-zero and is trending upwards significantly. That's in addition to any other monies that needs to be paid for system services like voltage support, reserves etc.

    Imagine building a gas, coal or oil plant and telling the owners that no matter what happens, as long as they're available (even if they never generate a single MW) they'll get paid in full for their potential electricity (plus any eligible ancillary service or capacity payments) . Now tell the same owners they can effectively build as many plant as they want and the electricity customer will underwrite that one way bet. It reeks of the cash for ash scandal up North a few years ago.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,559 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    That's not strictly true. They deliver roughly 85% of the time, but only 40% of their nameplate energy is actually produced when compared to potentially delivering at full capacity, averaged over the year.

    You are correct that it doesn't matter how many turbines you have during the 15% of the time where there is no or low wind, they'll all be delivering 0.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,559 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    The peak is after 7pm for several months of the year, do you tailor your cooking times accordingly? If everyone else does likewise, it just moves the peak later. There is no magic means to coordinate consumer behaviour to drive the desired outcomes. Use price signals and you'll encourage dips and peaks as consumers try to guess which way the price goes next, whether to cook now or later, which the grid operator will need to respond to. I've heard Eirgrid describe it as the peaks becoming "peakier" which exacerbates the issue. A preferred outcome is continued predictability for most grid operators. They'd prefer perfect foresight to optimise generation, not ever changing goalposts where prices chase their own tails.

    The days of ad breaks having significant impact on frequency are long gone. That's the impact of multiple channels, streaming services etc vs just Rte1 and maybe 2 in the past. It takes major global events (World Cup finals etc) to see that kind of behaviour now - maybe it happens once or twice a year, not hourly, daily or weekly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,993 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    All government releases are propoganda in one form or another.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,105 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    I did apologise to the poster I was replying to on the clarity of the population density map for Sweden. Here is a one that is clearer.

    and one that shows the location of their nuclear power plants.

    Not exactly located in the least densely populated areas of Sweden now are they.

    By ER figures I assume you mean that Eirgrid estimation of our electricity need by 2050. If so then that would mean that based on this plan that greens favor of 37GW from offshore wind 37GWs would not be enough to cut it. So how many more offshore windmills would be needed and their cost on top of the 37GWs that you still cannot give a price for ?

    A cost btw that has grown more legs and is now for floating offshore windmills close to twice per MWh that of Hinkley nuclear that greens were so fond of pointing their fingers at.



  • Registered Users Posts: 843 ✭✭✭m2_browning


    Spending 200-300 billion every 25 years and that’s before we get to the costs of batteries and hydrogen and connections that will be needed to accommodate unreliable wind

    is an understandable concern for citizens of this country to have

    you were bitching about NAMA which is small potatoes compared to this “plan” which is many multiples of nuclear



  • Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭deholleboom


    Nuclear energy production is indeed a complex mechanism. But complex doesnt mean problematic.The difference with green tech are manifold: nuclear energy production deals with quantifiable known elements and physics processes and the system is transparent from all sides. Nuclear plants are relatively small. They score high on efficiency. The waste is small and the energy output is very large. In other words: the pros and cons are clear.

    Wind and solar energy production on the other hand suffer from a multitude of issues that cannot be so easily swept under the table although many try. Current problems will increase and so will the uncertainties which is clear by looking at the short history of (i hate the word) renewables.

    I actually dont know how people think about nuclear energy in Ireland at the moment. If given the right information i think many will look more positive towards it. One thing for sure, if you want to bet on which energy technology will produce lower electricity prices, wind, solar or nuclear it is pretty clear. Ordinary people like certainty of outcome and low energy prices which favours nuclear. The only downside f Ireland concerns the economy of scale. It is a good argument but should be seen in the context of others..



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,105 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    We don`t have a budget for this offshore plan, and if we do then it`s a state secrets that greens appear to be sworn to not divulge. We can stab a pretty good quess at the capital expenditure for the offshore section alone based on U.K. costings and others that show it is many multiples of the capital expenditure of the recently opened Finnish nuclear plant.

    Personally I don`t believe this 37GW offshore plan has been put together without it being costed, (if it has then we really are on a financially economic road to nowhere), but that it is not being shown to the consuumers who would be paying for it because there would be blue murder and leave nuclear looking a much more practical solution on, not just reliability of supply, but price,



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,105 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    In otherwords a figure he pulled out of his hole that for just the offshore wind cost alone without all the hydrogen add ons of that plan,that is now at least 25% lower than the U.K. costs after the U.K. folding to the wind companies holding a gun to their head.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭deholleboom


    There is of course a reason why nuclear plants are located close to urban centres. It is electricity production. Produce it where it is needed. You dont have the same energy storage options like you do with solids.

    You should see electricity as a flux issue. To transfer you need close proximity. If that wasnt the case we could simply put hot countries full of solar panels and use that energy around the world. This option has actually been carefully studied. Solar farms in Africa for instance. You run into all kinds of transfer issues. Not a good idea. Then they looked at those solar panels providing electricity for hydrogen production. Again, transfer issues galore. H is the lightest molecule in the system and highly combustable ie, not very stable, pipes corrode etc.

    Apart from solar, good luck selling your excess wind energy abroad.

    Again and again and again the intermittency, storage/transference issue of solar and wind keep coming up. There is no way to overcome these basic problems. It is the very nature of the technology io a problem that might be solved..



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