Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

It might have helped your comprehension if you had actually bothered to read all of the article rather than the first line which mentioned another, now redacted study!

A factor not included in comparative studies of IQ tests is the actual exposure to doing the tests. Kids and adults in countries with regular standardised testing tend to score higher than those in countries that dont. One of the reasons Ireland are relatively low on the IQ tables is because we do relatively little standardised testing compared to other developed countries. In this scenario results tend lower as there is an element of learning how to take the test. There is obviously a limit to how much learning to take a test will improve the result.

The problem with that is the actions were those of Hamas, the elected government of Gaza.

Look Odyssey, you are making claims. It is up to you to prove them.

Of course we all know that Hamas committed horrific atrocities against civilians on October 7th. What we also know is that there were also claims made of atrocities, alleged by Israeli sources which did not happen, were exaggerated, unverified and subsequently retracted.

I accept that Hamas committed atrocities including even burning civilians but what you won’t accept for some reason is that no video of Hamas burning civilians exists or is claimed to exist by anyone except the poster you are defending who has claimed it.

Do you accept that the video doesn’t exist?

Yes, it's widely accepted that around 800 Israeli civilians were murdered by Hamas on October 7th, mostly as a result of being shot dead. However, many of the more lurid and horrific claims of how some of them were killed which emerged in the following two or three days do not appear to have been substantiated or proven (so far).

One of the memories that I can't unsee is when ISI paraded their prisoners, handcuffed and dressed in vivid orange jumpsuits (Guantanamo style) before executing them by beheading them, except for the Jordanian Pilot who they burnt alive. For me, Hamas and ISIS are one and the same thing. There is no difference in either their methods of terror or global aims of an Islamic Caliphate. The Palestinians are just a means to an end for them, nothing more.

The last election in Gaza was in 2006. Its pretty obvious most of the population had no part in electing Hamas.

An lest we forget, one of the reasons Hamas got elected and maintained power was Netanyahu's policies of undermining the PLO and allowing money be funnelled into Gaza to Hamas to further undermine the chances of a unified Palestinian regime.

I don't accept that the video doesn't exist or never existed. You state that you accept they burned civilians.

We have abundant evidence also that they streamed horrific footage of their the attacks, footage which was then taken down by responsible media outlets. Therefore it is plausible than someone saw footage of one of these horrific acts. It is baffling therefore why you would go to such lengths to dispute it.

"I accept that Hamas committed atrocities?"

Do you miss the step where you were asked to condemn them also? Why are you incapable of giving a straight answer to this question?

And as has been pointed out to you multiple times, and you have offered zero defence, you never post the line "you are making claims, it is up to you to prove them" to anyone making such claims about alleged Israeli atrocities. Only ever Hamas ones.

Therefore your posts here are not to advance the truth or set some bar for evidence, they serve the purpose of muddying the waters of atrocities you accept Hamas committed. If your posts are not intended to act in defence or support of Hamas, that is not the way to go about it because that is the impression they create.

The truth is that Hamas committed atrocities, including deliberate targeting and brutalisation of civilians, including burning of them. That is the truth we must not lose sight of.

Yep Netanyahu and his government of extremists did indeed do what they could to undermine Fata (formerly the PLO) but Fata were monumentally corrupt and inept so it was an easy task.

Hamas enjoyed broad support in Gaza in 2021 when 53% of the population approved of their leadership (only 14% supported Fata). Recent poles showing a large increase in that support seem to have been conducted over a very small population sample so I don't consider them to be as reliable.

No ok. Not going to fall for your attempted distraction. You are the one inserting yourself into the debate questioning claims about atrocities.

You were asked a simple question:

"I accept that Hamas committed atrocities?"

Do you miss the step where you were asked to condemn them also? Why are you incapable of giving a straight answer to this question?

And your response is whataboutery and deflection and paragraphs of text... anything but come out and condemn without reservation Hamas for the atrocities you accept they committed.

And yet you have never questioned similar claims about Israel, proof positive it is not done with regard to establishing some bar for evidence - so no you do not hold them to the same standard. Exactly what we would expect from a Hamas defender and supporter. And that's exactly what we get.

Under international law, there was a ceasefire on October 6th, then on October 7th, Hamas were the aggressor, giving Israel the right to self-defence under international law. You cannot have a right to self-defence under international law unless you are attacked by an aggressor who is not acting under their right to self-defence. So, unless and until Israel overstep the mark e.g. keep attacking Hamas after the hostages taken on 7/10 have been released, then the answer to your question is no.

This has been explained to you multiple times.

You haven't condemned Hamas for the specific atrocity you were asked to, the atrocity you were happy to post paragraphs about discussing earlier. Strange that.

You stated earlier that you accept Hamas burned civilians, you accept that Hamas inflicted atrocities on civilians - this is all in the content of your posts from today. I haven't picked some random atrocity out of the blue.

And yet instead of just accepting and then condemning Hamas for those atrocities against Israeli civilians, instead we get post after post dodging the question, whataboutery or vague indirect responses, and now attacking the poster querying why you can't give a straight answer. Anything but just bloody condemn Hamas for atrocities against civilians. So your continued refusals to condemn Hamas for atrocities against civilians is revealing.

Case in point for those who somehow think there are no Hamas supporters on the thread, when someone is unable to bring themselves to condemn Hamas for atrocities they accept they committed, that is a Hamas supporter and defender.

Asia stepping up now

One of the requirements to exercise the right to self-determination is that you extend that right to others. Given that the Palestinians have elected and maintained in place a regime that seeks the genocidal elimination of the Jews, the answer is that the Palestinians currently don't have the right to self-determination.