If Metrolink was scrapped, what are the alternatives?

This is ridiculous, there is zero indication that Metrolink is going to be scrapped. I do not understand why you are so determined to be cynical on this.

As much as a cynic as the next person, but MN barring an epic change in landscape, can’t be scrapped.

If it is scrapped, the country is finished.

Bad and all as the most of the current crop of government are (I know MM still lingering from a previous attempt to destroy the country), but compared to what went before them, I think they get how important this is.

The population is growing so rapidly, Dublin will not be able to continue to function at some stage in the future without MN.

There is no alternative.

I don't get the claim that cynicism about project delivery is due to experience. The only big rail cancellations were those of MN and DU and that was due to the fact that the state was not even in a position to pay salaries of teachers, guards and nurses in the largest economic crisis since the 1930s. The GFC was a once in a lifetime (or more) event - but it's as if people have already forgotten its impact or the state of the country in 2009 to 2013.

Ireland has been poor since the foundation of the state (at least - arguably it was Act of Union) and has only been in a position to spend anything on infrastructure since the 1990s. Initially that spending was focused on roads - not an unreasonable strategic decision given the state of the country at the time. This spending resulted in an incredible transformation - from the most dangerous roads in western Europe (in terms of fatalities) with barely 10km of actual motorway to nearly the safest roads in Europe and with 1000km of high quality modern spec motorway. Two years ago, government strategy officially switched to allocate the majority of the transport capital budget to public transport infrastructure when previously PT spending was little more than 10%. The complete transformation of the road network in the space of 25 years shows what consistent annual capital spending can do. If the current strategy of spending most of the money on PT is maintained for 20 or 30 years, then the same is absolutely sure to happen for public transport.

The biggest risk to this is a complete change of government and/or the endless cynicism, negativity and denigration when it comes to developing PT especially when no account is given to history or fair comparison with other countries.

Also denigrating the Luas makes no sense either from a historical perspective - it represents the largest amount of new rail infrastructure built since the state gained independence.

This "Ireland is **** at everything" and mantra is both tedious and ignorant.

The multinational I work for had a large team of international sales people working in Dublin a number of years ago, but moved the whole lot to the south of Spain since then. If a city doesn't have an effective transport system where people can live in one side but easily work in another side, then it's not really functioning like a city - more like separate neighbouring independent towns.

Bit of doomsday for Monday.

SF are not so stupid to drive away the money. They know where it comes from. They know they'll never get into government again if they drive it away and they know Ireland will never be a single united jurisdiction if we can't afford it. Why would anyone in NI give up a privileged position between UK and EU if SF have taxed all the jobs and FMN away.

#eyerollemojii

tram speeds in city centres arent any faster anywhere else. But yes as you said on street trams shouldn't be the main connection to distant suburbs, luas is over relied upon becasue it's all we have, it should not have been extended so far from the centre, this is a job for heavy rail or metro.

Titles this clickbait-y should be bannable imo

It’s clear as day to all of us that a second line needs to be built- however I wouldn’t share your optimism saying it’s fairly likley.

All of the stops will be extremely busy except for Daridstown - is that still a planned future station or part of the current plans? Estuary has P&R, then you have the Dart interchange at Cross Guns. DCU. The Mater. And don't forget all the bus routes that will feed passengers into every stop from every direction.

I think most cities are stuck with underground in the central areas, it's not unique to Dublin. And yeah let's hope lessons have been learned from NCH.

I hope your right.

Yes I know ABP is the bottleneck which is what I posted.

It’s also very likely that whenever it gets through ABP it’ll face a JR.

It’s not “doomposting” it’s realism.

Ok so I never criticised TII.

Ive criticised ABP and by extension on other threads- Darragh o brien as he’s the minister responsible for ABP.

When/if metrolink gets referred for a JR that’s another 3 years onto the planning process.

In 2020 €1 out of every €5 was generated by a FMN amounting to 11bn and of that 56% was generated by 10 companies.

So yes an isolationist government in America coupled with a pro wealth tax SF would not be great for us and metrolink.

No we don't! Not in comparison to our piers in the EU. I do agree with you though that the planning process is absolutely f**ked and needs major over haul.

I think BXD is completely different, half the line was a repurposed rail line and the other half is on roads that were already there. Very little in the way of large complex structures had to be built (no tunnels, cuttings, bridges etc). It's laying tracks on roads.

Very similar to the Green line south, from Harcourt street all it was, was reopening a closed rail line. It's not a new project with 0 pre-existing infra

@bk

Were they not all cut and cover designs/implementations? They're significantly cheaper. Those places are also quite flat which helps with depth.

So I've friends living in Fosterstown and since Runway Two has opened they're looking to move, as are a great many others. I cannot see them building futher south to be honest. Plus they're also blocked by a golf course that's unwilling to sell up

Most of the area on the East of Swords is Commercial business park type places. That I cannot see them moving any time soon.

Fingal country council is notorious for planning permission/rezoning. They've earmarked the North West of Swords for residential development, and that's where nearly all the work is going on (Rathbeale Rd).

There's a stack of Polytent and Greenhouse farms to the east / south east of Swords that are 100% unwilling to move as they've invested millions in those sites.

Rest of your points are all 100% valid. And I would love a metro, the city 100% needs it. but €23 Billion worst case scenario.... who's signing off on that? 🙄

A far cheaper, faster and scalable option is elevated rail. But as has been posted many times on this and other threads on Boards... the planning process is absolutely goosed (Unless you're building cycle lanes that is)

I think they'll start planning for line 2, once construction for line 1 begins.

I'd like Line 2 to be from Poolbeg Peninsula to Tallaght.

Really?

Leo Varadkar said it himself on Newstalks a few months back

Why would he say something like that on Live Radio given the ongoing mess a NCH?

I don't think any contractor has been formally signed on to start the work on date "X"

Rough Maths, and knowns costs of building X

For 4 tracks you need 16 Metres wide.

The Track is going to be roughly 15,000 metres long

So that's 240,000 Metre Sq

The average price of a house in North Dublin is €405k with an average area of 175 metres Sq

That means a MAX of 1400 houses would be need be CPO'd if there was absolutely no flexibility around the lines route. (give it would cross roads, campuses, fields, industrial estates and business parks, it would probably be less than half of that number)

In any case, that means the total price of buying the Land would be €555m then another €1b for four track elevated rail.

Twice the capacity in terms of rails, less than a 10th of the price (€23b) and constructed in less than a quarter of the time.

Now I know you're going to say CPOing 1400 properties is beyond pie in the sky and you're 100% correct. 

I'm just trying to demonstrate the cost 30 years worth of poor planning and the P!$$ take of a planning system that we have.

Interestingly, if you're out in the country and a government want to run a motorway through you're home or property... that's not an issue (And there have been may hundreds of homes/properties than have had to make way for motorways over the last few years) CPO'ing doesn't really happen in Dublin though, which is strange to me.

Where does 1bn for entire course of elevated rail come from?

What about demolition costs of 1400 houses? And you havent budgeted any area for stations either.

Also much of the houses that would need CPOd would be in the city center and south, with massively more expensive property costs than your north dublin figure. Easily into 1-2bn of CPOs alone, maybe more.

The Luas system is mickey mouse considering in such a big capital city, how little of the population it actually directly and conveniently serves.

I live in a busy, highly enough populated north Dublin suburb. The nearest Luas stop is a 15 - 20 minute drive away depending on traffic. I just confirmed that with google maps. That’s Mickey Mouse.

Of the 69 Luas stops. Around 50 ( quick count ) are on the Southside of the city, 19 on the North…. As a system that’s very much Mickey Mouse BS….

how many stops are interconnecting the lines like most credible, well thought out and intelligent public transport services ? A couple only.

Take Santry for example, it’s highly populated with both residential and businesses…residential population of or approaching 20,000 people…. and hundreds of businesses and workplaces…numerous business parks on that stretch, hotels, car hire, retail and banks….

yet you’d be over an hour walking to your nearest Luas stop. Same for a Dart.

the population is growing exponentially yet the pace in improving our infrastructure and services is at a fûcking snails pace in comparison.

Unless you're China..... 🙄

thats entirely up to our politicians.

they don’t happen at once but in other countries they happen comparatively quickly and efficiently… so why does that not happen here..? Decades to start and then finally finish, just the first line of a metro… not a network, just a single metro line. 😅

go to Lisbon, Madrid, Copenhagen etc and just coming back with such an immense appreciation of how nice, easy and effectively effortlessly efficient great public transport is…. All integrated, reliable, safe and quick.

we are still waiting to start digging, we can’t integrate jack…

No Metro ? There really isn’t a plan B… too much cash has been spent now not to mention too many people here is Dublin for it ever to be considered getting canned… the result would probably be violence if that ever happened…

look at Lisbon, every year or two they are adding stations, upgrading lines, improving, working, bettering… the people need it ? they DO it.

we can’t get a single piece of track down yet. or a station built… Decades later and …